Forum Activity for @Clay

I am kind of surprised that a company that sells both ball mills and melangers expresses the differences (and drawbacks) between their own products this way.(Maybe this applies to their products, not all products in the respective category?)

Of course, I am only looking at one frame of a video so it’s impossible for me to know the full context. If you want to post the URL of the video I will be happy to watch the full thing and respond – or send it to me via DM or email (I just sent you an email).

This is unlikely to be the considered opinion of the instructor – it is likely that this is based on how and what they were taught about the different technologies, especially within a competitive comparison matrix,

When I was representing FBM I spent a lot of time understanding what Selmi, Rockgate Group (Packint/Gami), Pomati, Ideo Tecnica, Tecno3, Betec, and others were doing and how they compared with FBM so I could represent everyone fairly. Even though I represented FBM I knew that FBM might not be the best option for that client for their application and situation.

It is almost impossible to do too much due diligence, unless it leads to analysis paralysis.

Skwerl: I am guessing that this marketing video was not published by a ball mill manufacturer <grin>.

Taste/Quality. If there is a metal taste from chocolate made in a ball mill the operator is likely not maintaining the mill properly, Used and maintained properly there should be no taste of metal in the chocolate. I often recommend that users of melangers lick the stones so they can identify if they are refining stone dust into their chocolate. (This is easy to do if too much pressure is applied. If there is, for example, a visible groove on the base the stone has to be somewhere – and that somewhere is in the chocolate. And stone dust can’t be removed, while small bits of metal can – with a magnetic trap.

Ball mills are not conches, so a separate conching step is required. I would never expect what comes out of a ball mill to be finished from a flavor perspective.

And quality is a different issue entirely.

Fast Food/Slow Food. Melangers are the original “fast food” machine for chocolate manufacturing. Before the melanger was the metate, So while I understand the point, I don’t agree with it 100% – it’s not one I would ever use.

Details/Notes. This is down to proper usage. I’ve tasted a lot of both under- and over-processed chocolate out of a melanger. Any technology can produce “good” as well as “bad” chocolate. This is too broad a statement to take seriously.

Faster/Slower. This is a restatement of the Fast Food/Slow Food argument. Slower is not always better – but, because time is money, slower may be more expensive.

Expensive/Cheaper. This is not a true dichotomy at a fundamental level, and it may not be true, I can purchase a 100L ball mill for ~€25,000 and a restored vintage 50L Lehmann melanger for $35,000. There needs to be a lot more specificity. You also need to consider throughput in the cost structure, not just CapEx. A 100L ball mill might produce 300L of finished chocolate/day. It could take 12-18 days for the 50L Lehmann melanger to produce the same amount.

Fat content. This is generally true, the minimum cocoa butter content in a ball mill is likely higher than the minimum in a melanger. But there is an implied value judgment here that less cocoa butter is always better – which is demonstrably not the case.

Pre-refining. It is less efficient to refine anything through > 1 order of magnitude in a single pass no matter what technology is used. Melangers are more efficient (faster) if paste is added, not nibs. But they suck as conches because that is not what they were designed for. Most makers use melangers because:

• You can get small ones for little money
• They are straightforward to understand
• Recipes tend to scale from small melangers to bigger ones
• Only one machine is required (less materials handling)

But those points do not automagically mean they are a better choice for every situation. When the Mast Bros had a line of 20 Cocoatown ECGC 65s in a rown in their Williamsburg shop they picked the least environmentally responsible way to scale production I can imagine – energy usage, heat produced, etc, etc

This is user-supplied content. It’s appearance does not imply endorsement by TheChocolateLife moderation team.

TheChocolateLife assumes no liability of any kind for incorrect information and/or incomplete transactions, for any reason.

Note to everyone: The online auction ends May 26 (starts closing at 6pm).

Sebastian:

Welcome back to the Forums – it’s been a while!

Skwerl – Sebastian is an industry veteran who’s been contributing to these forums since 2015. I did not have answers to your questions, so I contacted him and asked him to participate.

I watched the Technology Connections video and have changed my opinion of them after watching it. Dehumidification can be a solution (or part of a solution) to some mustiness issues.

If you cut beans in half, do you notice any mold or mildew? Do you notice the taste in the nibs after roasting? Can you smell the mustiness in the room where the melanger is?

Do you have a hygrometer in the room? Do you know what the humidity is? (40 ~ 55% rH is a good sweet spot).

Welcome to TheChocolateLife Forums!

I am not sure what you are asking about. Do you want to know more about To'ak the brand? Are you looking to sell your mint set of packaging? Do you have information about To’ak and want to know if members are interested in hearing it?

Any or all of these topics are probably better addressed in a new post.

I have written about To’ak a number of times over on the TheChocolateLife, most recently about the CXM Alchemy collection. That link is: https://thechocolatelife.com/review-toak-cxm-alchemy-collection.

I have also been in touch with one of the founders within the past two weeks on unrelated topics.

Mandy: Do you work for the company you link to? If yes, we need to have a private discussion about advertising.

Mandy – I appreciate that you did not appear to link to the company you work for, which apparently manufactures tin cans, given your email address. However, I do not know the relationship between the email address and Tin Boxes China, which is one of the sources you mention.

I have no issues with your continuing to post generally on topics such as this one that are in the expertise domain of your company. However, the moment they appear to cross over the line into promotion/advertising, you will be asked for compensation to advertise your company to my members.

This post was spam. All contact information was deleted and the poster has been banned.

Is there contact information other than DMing you?

Is there contact information other than DMing you?

Where are you located – US state? (I am not a potential buyer but it’s always a good idea to let potential buyers know where the item is.)

I am also guessing this has a 120VAC 60Hz electrical supply.

Eric - how do people get in touch with you if they are interested? TCL Forums members can DM you. Is there some other way that you feel comfortable sharing?

Maura:

This is one of the two main reasons I stopped representing FBM back in early 2020. It makes no sense that they won’t provide the documentation so that owners can perform minor repairs.

This is especially short-sighted as FBM has decided not to invest in the resources to fix these machines in the US. Last I knew, TCF does not have the technical staff to do the work.

What is the nature of the problem? It’s been a while since I last worked on a machine, but many people know my past relationship with FBM and I get contacted regularly for (free) guidance. My success rate is pretty high.

What I will also do is send the URL of this post to FBM to Ariana’s and Francesca’s bosses to see if that breaks the logjam.

How do you like your ICB machines in production? Which ones do you have? I know of the Top 11 and the Icebelt for it, but I don’t think I’ve ever spoken with anyone who owns one. How is it for depositing and enrobing?

[quote="kysen8"]

[quote] 

Hey, thank you for this response. Super helpful and helps point me in the right direction

[/quote] 

I am glad you found it helpful. Please keep us informed of your progress (at least I am interested in knowing what you find, what you decided on, and what direction(s) you decided to follow).

I know the heads of Penn State’s Cacao Research Lab (Mark and Siela) and so I am confident that any program on cacao fermentation inside their lab would be interesting. I don’t know anything about the Food Science program other than I think the annual chocolate-making intensive is hosted by that program. Is Food Science offering field studies in cacao fermentation? Where?

From a quick look at the Basque CC’s master’s program it’s not clear to me that cacao fermentation is a part of the curriculum.

One place I would start is the Cocoa Research Centre in Trinidad, which is housed in the University of the West Indies. Being located in a cocoa-producing country would interest me. OTOH, my friend and colleague Zoi Papalexandratou got her degree (in food fermentation, food microbiology, and post-harvest processing of cacao) at Vrije Universiteit Brussel.

In the US there nay be something in Hawaii and/or Puerto Rico – cacao grows in both places – offering field studies.

I remember what the issue was - I am trying to connect from an IP address that is in a blocked range. Even using a new ISP and a different VPN provider. After changing the VPN server and more settings, my IP range is still blocked. I tried to resolve these issues with the Stewards in the past but was not able to.

Rolling:

Thanks for the work updating Wikipedia’s coverage of chocolate.

You mentioned my prior comments on editing Wikipedia – as I recall, it was because I was not able to log in with editor/contributor credentials.

I will take a look and let you know what I think.

If the updates make it to the front page, let me know and I will promote!

Maura:

I wrote that user/troubleshooting manual!

In my experience, FBM has never been very responsive to requests for detailed wiring diagrams or parts lists, and all TCF Sales can do is contact FBM.

That said, who at FBM have you been in touch with?

Technical support? I can still reach out to the president and international sales manager to escalate this for you. Let me know and I will send you my email address to the email address of your account.

And welcome to TheChocolateLife Forums community!

/Clay

The post is over on TheChocolateLife .

TL;DR – Key Takeaways

From my understanding of the video (link in the post on TheChocolateLife), it’s best to address a humidity issue in an already air-conditioned space by increasing the capacity of the air conditioning system to both cool and properly dehumidify the air.

If you’re moving into a new space, sizing the AC properly in the first place is   always   the best solution.

If you do need “spot” dehumidification and can’t upgrade the installed system, consider a portable dehumidifier or portable air conditioner, and install it to exhaust both the heat and moisture the unit extracts into the existing HVAC return or directly outdoors. I have recommended the TrippLite SRCool 12000 to some of my clients as auxiliary cooling in a confined space for the construction of cooling rooms and tunnels.

If you decide to purchase a dehumidifier, consider buying one that uses   rotary dessicant   (as opposed to refrigeration compressor) technology, and no matter what option you choose, make sure to exhaust the warm air and humidity to the outside.

One way to get more efficiency out of a through-window or min-split system is by using one or more Coolbot Pros. One or more Coolbot Pros from StoreItCold can increase the efficiency of your air conditioning solution. With Coolbots you can easily cool a room down to 55F, which you can’t do with conventional AC units, obviating the need to purchase an expensive walk-in.

Thoughts? Comment here or over on main site.

Please use the following format to make it easier for people.

There are three parts. Whether you are selling or buying, what it is you are selling (F/S, For Sale) or WTB (Want to Buy), and where you are located. Each of these three parts should be separated a space-dash-space. See below:

For Sale / Wanted to Buy - What you are selling/looking for - Where you are (as precise as possible - country at least).

Examples:

• F/S - Used Batch Tempering Machine - Chicago
• WTB - Undeodorized Cocoa Butter - WA

Thanks.

Jessica - 

The archive does not get a lot of traffic.

Try re-posting here:

https://foodmaven.io/thechocolatelife/classifieds/

You can use the email for this account to ask for a password reset.

:: Clay

Mark -

This is the archive site and it's not getting many visitors. You can ask this over at the new ChocolateLife site. Use the "Forgot Password" and the email address you use to log into this account and then post in the "AskTCL" room.

You can ask questions like this on TheChocolateLife in the Ask TCL room. Use the email address you log in here to request a password and sign in. I know it's been a long time but we're moving in a good direction on the new platform. Major changes coming in the upcoming weeks.

And, it would be labeled "70% dark chocolate with Almonds". 

Here in the US you don't need to need to list ingredients percentages in the ingredient statements. In the EU you might. Keep in mind there is no official definition for dark chocolate. Colloquially any chocolate without any dairy ingredients is thought of as dark, but in the standards of identity it's called sweet chocolate - as in semi-sweet and bittersweet. Sweet chocolate can have dairy ingredients in it, for example, anhydrous butterfat (butter oil).

I have been in touch with the UK importer of Everlasting (Angel Refrigeration) for at least four years and have sold several of the 100-series units to chocolate makers here in the US. 

If you look at the specs for the blast chillers the goal is to be able to take product from 90C at the center to 3C at the center in under 90 minutes. Shock freezing takes product from 90C at the center down to -18C. 

NOW, if you can set the temperature of the blast chill cycle to ~12C that could work.

If you are looking at a 71-series cabinet, get the 72-series cabinet with the double doors. Slightly more expensive but you could, for example, use the bottom half for short-term storage and the top half for crystallization. In any event, when you open one door you're only pulling cool air from one half of the cabinet and so recovery time will be faster.

I was not being clear. The goal of a blast chiller is to cool things down very quickly. This is to reduce the size of ice crystals that might form as much as possible. Large ice crystals formed during slow freezing damage cell walls and so, when thawed, e.g., result in soggy fruit. 

A good temperature range for crystallizing chocolate is about 13-15C not -40C (which is = -40F). 

You do not want to use a blast chiller – the goal is to cool things down to about -40F as quickly as possible. Thermal shock is an understatement.

One of the larger-capacity Unox machines can certainly be used for this purpose and will likely cost less – on a batch capacity/throughput basis – than a drum roaster when you consider TCO (which includes ground rent).

One advantage of a drum roaster to consider is that the probe in the mass of beans can be connected to a computer and there is logging software that can be used to visualize the roast in real time. Putting a probe in a mass of beans in an oven is a little trickier.

One compelling advantage of a combi-oven (and there are less-expensive brands than the Unox, consider Convotherm) is the steam function. This provides a more effective microbial kill step than dry roasting and is something not many drum roasters incorporate.

A well-known chocolate maker recently went from a 3-pan convection oven to a 6-pan Unox. What they tell me is the most valuable feature for them is the ability to program the combi-oven's temperature and humidity over the duration of the roast. Once they find the roast parameters they like they program them into the oven. They fill the oven with beans, close the door, select the program, and then walk away until the roast is done. They find not having to pay close attention to the roast very liberating and a feature that increases overall productivity.

Finally, if you have an oven you can bake in it, something you can't do in a drum roaster. You can also roast nuts.

This is absolutely the first place to start.

If you are not adding already tempered chocolate you are not properly seeding as there are no proper seed crystals in the chocolate you're adding. It sounds like you might be using a machine like a chocovision. What I would experiment with is using the "mode 2" tempering setting, which is slower than #1. Heat the chocolate up and then do not add any more during the cooling down cycle. After cooling, let the temperature warm up and after the machine says the chocolate is ready, wait for 5-10 minutes to ensure even mixing.

The #2 program is sometimes used by small makers who do not add cocoa butter to their chocolate and don't have seed. The extra time, apparently, makes up for those deficiencies and enables enough of the right kind of crystals to form during cooling. 

Daniel - thanks for providing this recommendation. The web site is a little challenging to navigate so I think calling is the faster alternative. You've used them?

The kind of film you use depends a lot on what you're wrapping. Chocolate bars require different barrier properties than baked goods to. If you are buying you flow wrapper from a reputable source then they should be able to advise - or put you in touch with a manufacturer who can discuss your needs and recommend options. 

Here is a link to a page discussing some common film types.

The issue is less about the chocolate and mostly about what you're enrobing, and specifically what is called water activity, or aW. The higher the water activity, the shorter the shelf life. This is because water is where the organisms that cause mold to grow and dairy to go off exist.

Refrigeration is the single best approach to extending shelf life but as Jim points out it can be an impediment to impulse purchases if the product has to reach room temp before opening and eating for best eating experience and so that condensation does not form.

If refrigeration is not really an option then your next best bet is to use techniques and ingredients that reduce aW. If you don't know what your water activity there are devices to measure it - one common one is called the Pawkit. If I recall correctly, there is a lot of information on controlling aW in Peter Greweling's book.

The hotel pans give a clue to the dimensions.

In my experience, you will spend a lot of time working on duplicating the Kudvic rig. There is a lot going on here and the geometry and physics are complex. Also - a lot depends on the cracker you're using.

IMO - you'd be better off starting with the Real Seeds winnower and working to modify it. I would not use a single piece of plexi on the front. I'd have separate pieces for the zig zag chamber and the collection chambers. This will enable you to access the zig zag chamber easily and experiment with shapes and distances and more to improve and focus the turbulence which is what you need to separate things properly.

Dave -

One of the most-liked small winnowers is the one from RealSeeds in the UK:

http://www.realseeds.co.uk/seedcleaner.html

One trick to throughput on this is to be able to feed it continuously with some sort of feeder. I might also look to consider multiple passes or perhaps pre-classify.

You should also consider making this with food-safe material such as HDPE - at least for the food contact parts.

I would be careful with making too extensive modifications to the dimensions.

My pleasure!

I have a bunch of Ateco-brand spatulas that I am very happy with.

Jim -

In purpose-built fridges the purpose is all about short recovery times. Getting back to the desired RH and temp quickly when the door is closed.

The larger Everlasting fridges, in part because they are deep and narrow, recover very quickly. It's also one of the reasons I recommend the double-door version as this reduces recovery time.

Another aspect of these purpose-built fridges is the circulation of air. It's designed to remove the latent heat of crystallization efficiently. (And the humidity.)

You can't use an external controller for temp as when you turn on the fridge (at least many commercial fridges) the first thing they do is go into defrost mode.

I have been told that about 55F (about 13C) is a good temperature to start with. RH about the same 50-55.

The Everlasting 130 with a glass door is about £2700 plus shipping. Stainless steel is about £100 cheaper. Takes about 60 days from completion of order. It's 220V single-phase, no 120V option, so might not work in a home environment. The load is pretty low so you might be able to use an electronic transformer designed for appliances with reactive loads (e.g., refrigerators with compressors).

@chocotoymaker -

It's in section 3.14 of the following document:

https://www.fda.gov/ICECI/Inspections/InspectionGuides/ucm074948.htm

@jim-dutton - 

To the extent that you reduce the amount of moisture in the immediate environment that can condense on the surface - maybe. However, the labor and time involved may not be worth it.

However, airflow over the surfaces of the mold (there is a fan in the fridge that works all the time, right?) are key to removing the latent heat of crystallization and so containing the mold as you suggest would certainly slow crystallization down, could interfere with it - reducing the quality of the temper, and might not solve the moisture problem.

First thing is to know what the RH in the fridge is. If you don't want to invest a lot of $$, try something like a Moso Natural charcoal bag or something similar just to see where that takes the RH to and see if that solves your problem.

The major issue is managing humidity if there is a temperature difference between the room and the cooler.

There are static options.

One is Cooler King from PolarFresh:
http://www.polarfresh.com

Another is HumiClear:
http://humiclear.com

The great thing about static systems is that you can retrofit them to any existing cabinet (e.g., wine fridge).

However, if you are interested in a new cooling solution with built-in humidity control, the fridges from Everlasting are very good and I can source them for you.