Thanks Al!
I think your summary is excellent ! I am definitely experiencing enrober envy at the moment! I would love to see the Sollich in action.I wonderhow the LCM machines would compare? Perhapsthey wouldbe like aBentley?
Thanks for all your feedback. You have definitely inspired me to sell more chocolate so I can get one of these fine machines.
Daniel
Hi Daniel,
The machine I had didn't have a heated blower, so I don't know how much of a difference it would have made. For me, having gone from the wheel machine to a continuous tempering machine, I have just felt like the continuous tempering means you have one less thing to worry about. When you are enrobing a lot of centers, the last thing you want to be worrying about is the changing thickness of your chocolate. I also know, that when I enrobe I want to get the shiniest finish possible - for this reason adjusting the temperature of the chocolate to thin it out is the last thing I want to do. If I start enrobing at 30, I want to enrobe at 30 all day long, as it should result in complete consistancy.
I have had a Savy Goiseau Crystal 185 continuous tempering machine and enrober, which was pretty good. The quality of temper was pretty good and the quality of enrobe that you could get was pretty good too - far above what I could achieve with the Prefamac wheel machine. No bubbles, paper thin covering with no feet.
I have then moved onto a Sollich enrobing line with cooling tunnel, which obviously is a different beast altogether again. The Sollich is an absolute joy to use - the quality of temper, the quality of covering is just exceptional. When I bought our Sollich enrobing line, the guy selling it said, the best way to describe a Sollich and a wheel tempering enrober would be that the Sollich is the Rolls Royce and the wheel machine is a Fiat Panda.
For me, I would rank the enrobing machines I have had as the equivalent of the cars below:
Prefamac Wheel Macine: Fiat
Savy Goiseau Crystal 185: Citroen
Selmi Plus w/Enrober: BMW
Sollich: Rolls Royce
All of the machines above are all at very different price points, and something like a Sollich is not practical for the small workshop, however as I have said before, if I was starting out, I would buy a second hand continuous tempering/enrobing machine, rather than a new wheel machine.
You can see my work on my companies Instagram page: http://instagram.com/chocsoc
If you have any other questions about machinery, please give me a shout.
Hi Al,
I completely respect your point of view. For me, managing the chocolate has not been too much of an issue on a wheel machine because I have the option of heated air in the blower.
If the chocolate begins to get too cool or thick I will simply have heated air going through the blower. When the chocolate gets too warm, I run cool air through the blower. If I did not have this option, it would be a lot more challenging and I would be using a heat gun often to melt out thick chocolate. Because I have the option of heated air, I will use the machine for 10 hours without ever picking up a heat gun.
Perhaps if I acquired a machine such as a Selmi, FBM, or LCM, I might feel the same way as you and never turn back to a wheel machine. Has the Selmi improved the quality of your finished chocolate confections? Does it enrobe better? Are there feet on your chocolate bon bons? How about air bubbles? Thanks for sharing your experiences?
Daniel
....and consider also a melting bowl that would be less narrow but more deep! I mean same bowl capacity but designed less wide (diameter) but deeper...chocolate would be bettermelted and heated .
Completly agree to what Al wrote.
Hi Daniel,
I had a Prefamac Tempering Machine and Enrober. The reason I would not recommend a machine like this is because of the quality of the tempered chocolate that you use when enrobing.
As the wheel machine in essence batch tempers the chocolate ie. the whole 30kg gets tempered in minute 1, the characteristics of this chocolate changes minute 2, 3, 10, 15, 30, 60, 90 etc. The chocolate is likely going to increase in numbers of crystals and get thicker. Obviously if the thickness of the chocolate on your first center is different to the thickness of the covering of your 1,000 center, then this is a problem. I want my chocolates to all have the same thickness, I want consistency in my production. I have heard of people working successfully to reduce the thickness of the chocolate, by increasing the working temp by 1 degree etc, however it's a pain, and I believe the quality of finish is compromised when this happens.
A machine such as a Selmi has a continuos tempering machine, as in the chocolate is always in temper when it comes out of the spout at the top of the machine, and then it is taken out of temper when it drops down into the tank at the bottom, before being taken through the temper cycle again. With this, you are always enrobing in freshly tempered chocolate. Not only does this mean, the thickness of the chocolate is the same all day long, the tank can be topped up with 45degree chocolate all day long and you can enrobe all day with no interruptions for tweaking the chocolate thickness etc.
I'm sure a lot of people will have great experience with wheel machines, however in my experience when you go to continuous tempering you will never go back.
I would 100% buy a second hand continuous enrobing machine from Selmi etc. rather than buy a brand new wheel machine.
Thanks
Al
Hi Al,
What kind of wheel tempering machine and enrober did you have? I would like to hear more about why it did not work out for you.
Daniel
I just bought some equipment from Perfect. Fit our budget, went with a 20kg tempering unit which is more then enough for us for a couple of years and will buy the enrober in a few months. Thank you for all your input, I researched all the equipment that was mentioned. It was great seeing everything that was out there and the features, helped narrow down what would be the best fit for us. Came down to price, availability of parts and features. Thankfully Perfect equipment is in Canada so no duties! always a killer on the budget.
I'm very glad and thankful to have had all of you to ask, this forum is such a useful resource. Thanks Clay!
Hi Dirke,
I don't want to enter in sales talk, that's not why I replied to your message.
Just a good advice is to test well the machine for several hours and days and then you can decide which machine is good for your needs (and your future needs). As said speak also with other people and not only the people that the supplier suggest 
All the best
Tom
Dirke, small tempering machines with enrober are smaller capacity machines. And less expansive machines. Enrober width is 180 mm. Our competitor entrober, on bigger capacity machines, is 200 mm wide. What do you think? When you do enrobe is the machine or the enrober that gives the productivity rate?
I got some customers with small machines enrobers who can produce 300 pralines per hour working only 1 person and 600 units working one person loading and the other at the end of the enrober taking off the pralines.
With 7 kg bowl capacity you can produce up to 30 kg final product. Considering a pralines can have from 3 to 5 grams chocolate.
Sure, if you have to mould 1 kg mold.....not enough bowl capacity!
About upgradability. We do have 2 different capacity machines (7 and 12 kg) that can have same enrober. So, under an investment point of view: 2 machines and 1 accessory means: upgradable solution at the right price.
FBM is trying to care more of what the customer needs are. Maybe we will change our mind in the future 
I thought about a small tempering machine because you first asked for a Chocovision 3z!
Giuseppe
Hi Dirke,
you can consider a small tempering machine with a small enrober, but what will you do with the machine when you grow your business? Their enrobing quality is not 100% and it limits your growth.
You also need to look at a tempering machine that gives enough chocolate to make a nice double curtain for perfect enrobing.
A second hand can be an option for budget sake, but you can also look into the Tomrics summer sale that has the newest generation of tempering machinery on a very good price. Ask also to Tomrics references on the market, they have put a big number of tempering machinery on the USA market and have a lot of knowledge.
Good luck !
Tom
Hi Dirke,
I would always consider second hand machines too.. you can make your budget go so much further when you don't buy brand new, but obviously you don't benefit from warranties etc.
If I were you, I would be looking for a second hand Selmi Plus. They come up on here once in a while.
You will find the Continuous Tempering is a massive feature for the enrober too.
Dirke, what about having a look at the conotnuous tempering machine from FBM?
FBM has been manufacturing machines since 1977, and over the last years has been producing small tempering and enrobing machines.
From the 7 kg bowl capacity tempering machine upwards, all the temepring unit can use an enrober as accessory (including air blower, double veil box, detailerindependent motor).
Prima, Compatta, Chocolab are what we call small tempering and enrobing machines. You can visit website at www.boscolo.it and blog (with videos) at myblog.boscolo.it
Please ask if you need further help and informations.
Giuseppe
Daniel, that's perfect! Exactly what I am looking for and in Canada to boot! Brilliant! Thank you so much. I have just sent them an email to get pricing. Cheers
Hi Dirke,
A few years ago, I posted a review of Perfect Equipments entry level enrober. Check it out here http://www.thechocolatelife.com/forum/topics/what-s-your-dream-machine . I think it is a very good entry level enrober. They are about $12 or $13,000 USD new. There are certainly more advanced enrobers out there. I use my enrober 3 or 4 times a week -- often all day long. This machine has helped my business tremendously. I certainly dream of getting a fancy LCM enrobing line that will cost $50k, but the machine I have has done the job very well.
I personally am not a fan of the chocovision enrober because I simply don't understand how it works. I would not invest in a machine without a paper take off. Then again, it depends on the quantity and the resulting look that you want to achieve. Do you want a more rustic look or a more refined confection with a very thin coating? The latter is very important to me so a blower is a must. Ihave never owned a chocovision so I amdefinitely not an expert on the machine. Perhaps a rep for the company might want to chime in on how the enrober will work?
Again, there arefancier machines than what I have, but I believe that I have the best machine that is under $15k .
Good luck with the decision. It's certainly is a big investment.
Daniel
Currently looking for a tempering system with the idea of having an enrobing line to attach to it later down the road. I was looking at the Chocovision 3z as I like their equipment and their support is first class but they are still working on an enrobing line that has the wax paper take off.
Looked at the Tomric and Selmi solutions but they are really expensive where as the chocovision system is affordable and I believe we get a discount through chocolate life? Any recommendations would be appreciated, the pro's & cons.....
My vote is oil migration although it is happening relatively quickly but it seems the worst where the nuts are practically poking out of the bars and the oil doesn't seem to have far to go.
I agree with Sebastian that it's very difficult to troubleshoot from distance (and across different unit systems).
I would suggest making a much smaller batch using just plain chocolate (so it can be remelted and reused) with current temperature settings. Than another with cooling stage 2 degrees lower and heating same, than another with cooling stage same but heating 1-2 degrees lower, another with cooling same and heating 1-2 degrees higher.
Check the temper and make bars. Inspect them after a few days and see which ones look best.
This is your best way to find correct tempering settings without temper meter.
Batch tempering is very tricky process to nail down as chocolate temper will change with time. Crystal formation or melting will keep going on resulting in perfectly tempered chocolate losingtemper if it's not used fast.
We have a block with inclusions process where we do batch temper and our batch size isaround 15kg. Chocolate gets tempered, mixed with inclusions and moulded over 15 minutes. You can see the difference between block/bars made at the beginning of the batch and ones made at the end. We just discussed dropping batch size to 10kg or less.
the site's not allowing me to respond to your last post, so i'll just do it here.
Trouble shooting remotely's always a tricky proposition. Yes temper meters are expensive, but they do pretty much guarantee success. There's no question as to if you have achieved temper or not. I suppose it's like many things - the value equation changes over time (and certainly with scale) - a tool that may have not made sense when you're very small may makes all kinds of sense as you grow.
It doesn't feel like we've identified what's causing your headaches. Sounds like you're pretty confident in your thermometers, the temperature of the nuts is under control, and the issue appears to be isolated to chocolates made using that one batch of liquor - which suggests it has something to do with the liquor. Perhaps it's fatty acid composition is sufficiently different than what you're accustomed to using (meaning your tempering profile will need to change). It may be that, if so, you could compensate a bit by adjusting your formulation to include some milk fat (2% - 3% at the expense of lowering the cocoa butter) to try to build in sufficient bloom resistance to mitigate whatever's causing the issue from the liquor.
RE: nut roasting, there are difference between air and oil roasting, but generally the lower temperatures you roast at, the slower oxidation occurs.
We bought a new thermometers, and checked the temps/humidity of the working environment and refrigerator. Everything seems fine, but the humidity in the refrigerator which gets quite high. I doubt the humidity is the issue as we haven't had any condensation form on the chocolate. The bars are removed as soon as they pull off from the moulds.
Our process involves receiving liquor, butter, and sugar then mixing,tempering and molding.
We talked to our supplier about this specific batch number of paste/butter and they haven't had any complaints from other customers.
Those pricey temper meters seemed unnecessary. Our thoughts have always been that a chocolate's temper is a (yes or no) type of thing which the eye and an easy test (knife tip) would suffice.
As far as the nuts, thats very interesting and will have to look into it. I was also under the opinion that roasting a nut would accelerate the oxidation process and would less stable. Please correct me if Im wrong, as Im no expert.
thanks
1. 80-100lbs
2. Usually let the machine continue to agitate the chocolate for 20-30 once its come to temper (88.7f). then> read below
3. we will dump 40lbs of the "tempered" chocolate from the Savage Bros machine into our large Chocovision set to 88.7f. Once in that machine, we will dip a clean knife in the chocolate and place in our modified refrigerator or cooling room.
4. The machine is fairly new and have never thought to check the instruments on it. How would one do so?
5. We have not. Our temp settings are currently Melt(120f)>Cool(84f)>Heat(88.7f)
I think you might be on to something Peter. We have just started doing larger batches 80-100lbs and since doing so our temper has been a bit all over the place. When the temper is less than Ideal, our thought was it just needed to be agitated longer for the correct tempered forms to proliferate.
Thanks
Remember, it's always time, temperature, or contamination.
Were you able to validate the accuracy of your thermometers?
If you'd achieved success historically, and if you're successful with the new batch of liquor - meaning you're problematic with only a specific lot of liquor - then i'd look very closely at that liquor. Remember not all liquor is created equal - the amount and type of cocoa butter in it can be different - which means that your tempering process and/or final formulation may need to be tweaked as a result. it's also possible (although unlikely) that you received a batch of liquor that had been contaminated with another type of fat. not know the supply chain you're using it's impossible for me to say.
are you receiving liquor, making your own chocolate, and then mixing/molding it? or are you purchasing finished chocolate from someone? if the latter, have you provided the original mfr lot information and detailed problem log so they can troubleshoot that specific lots production information? Do you have a temper meter you use to check temper?
I can rule out fungal issues w/o asking any more questions - it's not that.
Are you soaking the nuts to attempt to degrade phytic acid for nutritive reasons? if so, might i make a suggestion and eliminate that process - there no evidence it's effective (i've done the study), and increases the likelihood of micro issues quite a bit. You may find marketing value in it; however there's no scientific basis for it.
I must admitt that only now I realized what issue you are talking about. Photos in the first post had a lot of white spots (very small) and they looked like a result of water droplets or condensation.
Didn't know what to say as you seem to have the temperatures dew point
relationship under control.
Only with the last post and pictures I realized you are talking about: large bloomed areas on the inclusions. If I'm correct?.
After reading about your process in the above posts I have a few questions:
1. You batch temper your chocolate, what is the batch size?
2. After chocolate has been tempered, how long does it stay in tempered stage befor you use it?
3. In the morning you check the temper, how do you do it?
4. Have you checked if the instruments on your tempering machine are calibrated? That means that if the chocolate temperature is let's say 80F is the sensor reading (or display showing) the same temperature?
5. Have you tried different temperature settings for your tempering?
I would guess that there is an issue with your tempering and adding inclusions with different temperature makes the problem show up.
Batch tempering chocolate is very often a hit and miss afair as tempered chocolate does not really "hold temper" for a long time.
Hey Sebastian
The saga continues.....
We have tried just about everything, including setting up a dedicated "cool" room with a Tripp Lite AC blowing cold, dry 64f air over the bars, heating up the inclusions before adding them to the chocolate, heating up molds, etc.
The bars set up nice and quick but after only 6 hrs they show whitish grey marks where the inclusions are located. What looks like a localized issue eventually effects the whole bar. VERY STRANGE. -See picture-
It also turns out that even the Chocolate bars without inclusions after a week storedat a controlled 71f start to turn whitish grey.
Our next idea was to try using some over-the-counter couverture using our same inclusions and process. The bars turned out perfect! No white spots/blemishes.
Having done this, it got us thinking and it turns out our chocolate took a turn for the worse after receiving a new batch of Cacao Paste. AAAHAA
Have you every seen or heard of anything like this..? Could it really be fungus/mold?
Will check the temps again to rule that out.
Our inclusions are soaked and dehydrated which makes for a very stable nut that isn't oily like oil roasted nut or even dry roasted for that matter.
The bars don't appear to have any condensation on them when they are taken out of the cooler. Using the infrared thermometer, the bars are about 75f or so when taken out which is well above the dew point.
We are going to try a couples again today to try and figure the mess out.
Really appreciate the help
Safe travels
hmm.. it's always either time, temperature, or contamination. Are you confident your thermometers are accurate? If so, i suppose if your almonds are oil roasted, you may be seeing some residual surface oil from roasting result in surface bloom. Another thought - are you certain it's fat bloom (i.e. could it be sugar bloom? are you getting any condensation on the bars when removed from the cooler?)
i'm afraid i've got to travel for a few days, leaving today, so responses are likely to be delayed.
Another thought is the thermal mass of the entire refrigerator(pictured) when filled with molds.
Maybe the filled refrigerator isn't cold enough and doesn't cool the chocolate fast enough??
There is up to 90 molds in there at a time which probably give off quite a bit of heat
Hey Sebastian,
So we just did another huge production of 600 bars and they bloomed again within 24hrs:(
This time warming the inclusions to 88.7f, our tempered dark chocolate temp.
See pictures.
Its really frustrating because for the last year we have been in a shared commercial kitchen with less than ideal conditions (75-78f) and humidity over 50% sometimes. In that kitchen we successfully made over 30,000 bars with no issues. And now, since moving into our newly built out kitchen with supposedly perfect chocolate making condition, we are struggling like complete newbies..
In the attached picture you can see how badly the bars with inclusions have bloomed. For reference, I also posted a plain dark chocolate bar that came out absolutely perfect from the same batch of Chocolate.
Our process goes like this:
-Load Savage Brothers tempering machine with raw materials at night and set machine to have the chocolate tempered in the morning.
-In the morning we check the temper of the chocolate, if correct, we transfer 30# of tempered chocolate at a time to our Chocovison 3z machine for easier work flow.
-Tempered chocolate is portioned into warmed stainless steel bowl, inclusions are mixed in and then hand poured into molds with a portioning scoop.
-the molds are then put into the True-49 refrigerator(with a wine/choc thermostat) from the bottom up
-once the chocolate is set (pulled of from mold), they are removed from refrigerators and set on racks.
This process has worked well for us at our old kitchen but for some reason isn't working in our new one and its driving us crazy!
On the front of the bloomed chocolates, the white blemishes are directly above inclusions(in this case nuts).
Yesterday, we also tried a different method of setting up the chocolate whereby we filled the bar molds and then let the chocolate bars sit at room temp(69-70f) for 15 minutes until the backs went from liquid to solid matte. Then the bars were placed in the refrigerator(55-60f) to finished the cooling process. These bars unfortunately also had that nightmarish bloom.
Some other info that could help you diagnose this problem:
-64g Chocolate bars.
-1/4 inch thin molds
-vacuum formed molds from Tomric.
Really hope you can help us find the issue
Thanks in advance.
quite welcome - let us know if it doesn't work!
Soaked in filter water and then dehydrated at 170f for close to to 24 hrs to get rid of some of the enzyme inhibiters which affects digestion.
The almonds are room temp (68-70f).
Ive read over and over that inclusion should be the same temp as the tempered chocolate(88.7f) but for some reason I didn't think it was that big of a deal. In my mind, I thought having inclusions colder than the chocolate would just accelerate the crystallization of the chocolate but not affect the bar negatively.
Thank you so much for the help 
Soaked in what?
What's the temperature of your almonds when you put them in the chocolate - remember if they're too cold or too warm, they will result in localized over temper / under temper. ideally they'd be *slightly* warmer than your chocolate (for example, 89F)
Hi,
I made some Dark chocolate yesterday and the bars already have white spots on them. The white spots are exactly where the inclusions (soaked and dehydrated Almonds) are.
Is this Fat Migration, or a tempering issue ?
Chocolate Bars set up in a True T-49 refrigerator with a chocolate/wine thermostat (55-60f).
Really confused as to what is causing this as our conditions are idea.
68f working environment, automatic savage brother tempering machine, vibrating table. etc
Any help would be much appreciated.
thanks
no, the chocolate around the edge will seal to the dot.
We used to do this to dip cream fondant. Now we've switched to dipping the fondant with the slab method that Gap mentioned. - precoating the bottom & using a dipping fork to dip.It is MUCH faster, easier, and it has eliminated our spurts altogether.
Along the lines of Peter's response: what candy are you coating? Is it something you make in a "slab" before cutting up and then dipping? If it is, then you can pre-coat the bottom of the slab with over-tempered chocolate, cut up the slab into bite-size bits and then coat them in chocolate putting the pre-coated side as the bottom (essentially giving the bottom two layers).
Coating it with chocolate twice is the best solution.
I'm not sure what you mean by liquoring. Do you just mean that the chocolate maker who makes the chocolate you use does not pre-grind his nibs before further refining? If so, I don't think that should cause the problems you're having, as that's what myself and many other makers do, and the resulting chocolate tempers fine.
