Forum Activity for @Al Garnsworthy

relative humidity and temp seem to be fine..

Hello everyone!

My little chocolate shop has been open for about 4 months now, and all of a sudden, I'm having tempering issues. (Of course it has to happen with 5 custom orders due in the next few days! Ugh!)

So, a little background. I'm using 2 Chocovision Revolation 3210s, and Noel chocolate (55% and 72%). The machine with the 72% has the new 'holey baffle' in it.

At the time of the difficulties, the kitchen was 64 degrees Fahrenheit, and humidity was 51%.

The 55% came into temper first, and the first test was horrible. All white and dusty, as if it wasn't in temper at all. Second test was the same, and the third. So...I hit the reset button on that one and moved on to the 72%. Exactly the same thing happened.

I'm assuming since the same situation happened to both machines, it was a environmental thing, rather than a machine malfunction.

Is 51% humidity too much? Is my room too cold? I don't know what I'm doing wrong, and this hasn't happened to me since I opened...

Thank you in advance for your help!

Look at the moisture level and the sugar types and levels.If the water isn't tied up enough by the sugars it will easily migrate into the chocolate, making the chocolate soft, and the center will shrink and firm up. How the chocolate is standardized to viscosityalsoinfluences how fast the migration occurs.

I exclusively use square magnetic molds for my truffles, and the same thing was happening to me. I reduced the amount of cream I used by about 2 tsp and haven't had the problem since.

Good luck!

Thank you!...I usually do but in this particular case I didn't. Thanks I will try again and see how it goes.

Do you let your ganache set overnight before you cap it or enrobe it ? The ganache will shrink and suck the sides of your chocolate in..

This is the short version to a long answer...

Hope it helps !!

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone can tell me why some of my chocolates sides cave in after a few days. Im' guessing its either from the shell being too thin or the mixture having too much moisture.

They look great at first and then a few days later. the sides are all concave.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you

Cocoa Jo

Hey Stu,

where about in New Zealand are you starting your business?

Thanks and a happy new year!

Anissa

Stu:

At that kind of throughput, a couple of options suggest themselves to me.

The first is a continuous machine like a Selmi Color EX. It's about 10,000 Euros ex-works Italy. It's sweet spot for production is right in the range you are talking about. As you mention it's not a great option as you can only afford one and if anything goes wrong ... The EX model has the removable augur making changeover faster.

Another continuous tempering option is the FBM Prima. This has a 7kg tank and an hourly capacity in the 35kg range, but the price is 6,000 Euros ex-works Italy, before a ChocolateLife member discount. You can run milk in one, dark in another, or the same chocolate in both to reach ~70kg/hr throughput. And you have a backup machine in case one goes down.

Another option is what are called "over/under" tempering tanks. These are basically two melting tanks, one positioned over the other. The top tank holds melted chocolate that is dripped into the bottom tank, The bottom tank is tempered using the seed method (there is an agitator), and chocolate is removed via a valve at the bottom of the lower tank. There are many operations that use this approach for very high volume production. The cost depends on the sizes of the tanks and whether or not there is a pump involved - but you should be able to buy two sets for the budget you're talking about. The vibrating table is not included, but you can get one that holds three full-size molds from Chocovision for about US$800.

:: Clay

Hi Clay,

Hourly throughput in the range of 50 - 90kg

Cheers

Stu

Sorry, throughput, not capacity: 25 kg/hr or 25 kg/day?

A machine has a work bowl capacity and an average hourly throughput capacity. A batch melter might have a high bowl capacity (e.g., 25kg, but if it take 1 hour to melt and temper 25kg, then its throughput is limited to the number of cycles in a day.

The small Selmi's have work bowl capacities that are small, but have throughput capacities that are multiples higher. If you only needed 25kg day of chocolate, you could get by with a machine with a 4kg work bowl capacity with an hourly throughput of 10kg.

Make sense?

Hi Clay

Good point, have edited my post above to include the relevant information, which is:

Continuous Automatic (would be nice!) or semi-automatic wheel machine (most likely what I can afford). I do not want a manual melter.

Size - 25kg capacity is about right for us.

Thanks

Stu

Stu:

What kind of hourly/daily production are you looking at?

Also - be aware of the difference between automatic tempering machines (i.e., continuous tempering machines, e.g., Selmi), semi-automatic machines (i.e., batch/wheel, e.g., Perfect, JVK), and melters (i.e., manual tempering).

Automatic is most expensive, and because of the electronics, most likely to break. These also offer the highest production capacity and throughput with enrobing, mold filling, and depositing options. Usually have buit-in vibrating tables.

Semi-automatic is middling expensive and are much more rugged. Second-highest capacity and throughput with enrobing options.

Manual are least expensive (though not cheap) and least likely to give problems. However, the require the highest degree of skill to use and need to be tweaked during the day. No options, everything is done by hand. Can be high throughput for skilled workers.

Which way to go depends on your confidence and your skill level as well as the mix of products you're making and how much chocolate you go through every day. If you can answer these last three questions, we can make better recommendations,

:: Clay

Hello!

It is finally that time - we have found a 300sqm site for our new factory/offices/cafe/showroom.

Next step - buy tempering machines. And getting them to New Zealand (for those geographically challenged, that's next to Australia. If you don't know where Australia is, you are probably a little too geographically challenged

I am so torn about what to buy. I want to have two machines, so I do not need to change out to mix between milk & dark. And to keep production in the event one needs servicing. But by buying 2, I will not be able to afford a Selmi.

I have considered 2 x Moldart machines as these are fairly reasonable in price.

I have heard a lot of people talk about Prefect machines, but haven't priced/examined in detail, but this could be an option.

Essentially, I don't want to spend more than $15,000 US - what would you do with that budget? I am looking for either continuous automatic tempering or a semi-automatic wheel machine. Must have vibrating table. Size - 25kg capacity would be the ideal size.

Lastly, anyone used Desserthouse? They are offering 40% off but I have never heard of them.

Thanks

Stu

If you are still tempering by hand, your chocolate will stay at your working temperature longer the larger the volume of chocolate you are working with. Reheat as needed as already suggested in the other post. There is no special trick - once you know how to temper, as you already do, it is pretty much all the same no matter how much chocolate you are working with.

Hi Nigel,

It sounds like your business is gorwing andthat's fantastic. What youneed in this case is a tempering machine. You just need to feed the machine the chocolate you use, set the right temperatures and you'll get excellent tempered chocolate. Plus think about all the time saved on tempering, re-tempering,cleaning...

Omar

Reheat as often as necessary with a heat gun, or add warm untempered chocolate. As long as you don't exceed the working temperature your chocolate will stay in temper.

I have only ever tempered small quantities for small batches of chocolate and this has been very successful and now need to produce larger batches - can anyone advise how to keep my tempered chocolate "in temper" so I can temper larger quantities and use throughout the day?

Many thanks

Nigel

For those of you interested, Adam finished his recipe tweaking and did a post on his blog back in Jan

http://www.parispatisseries.com/2012/01/18/parisian-hot-chocolate-recipe-chocolat-chaud/

Thanks Felipe, so the concept is as aflavouring agent but also for texture? I assume you would get the lumps at the bottom or does it floatkind of like a marshmallow in hot chocolate concept?Oh and how much would one typically add to say a 250ml mug of hot chocolate? And how do you make your hot chocolate, with milk or water?

Tom, the cheese is similar to mozarella. They call it 'queso campesino' or country/peasant cheese. There are some videos on youtube of the process to make it.

Some people use mozarella, it's a matter of personal choice. The cheese is cut into cubes and put into the cup to heat up before drinking. The queso campesino retains its structure and becomes chewy, which is really nice. I guess a more neutral flavor is preferable to more mature cheeses.

I have never heard of this before but it is something I would be interested in trying. So what is 'white cheese', could you liken it to a type? Is it a soft salty cheese like ricotta or something more mature, less salty like fetta?

Chirag, thanks for resurrecting this thread, I had missed it earlier.

I can say that the hot chocolate we drink in Colombia is very popular with a favorite being the addition of white cheese, which melts in the chocolate and also releases some slightly sour milk fat. Very good. Not sure if it is common elsewhere.I do remember friends from the UK who were shocked and refused to put cheese in their hot chocolate.

Brad:

i hope youdon'tmind me asking, but when u say garam masala, what combination of spices are u refering to?

here in India we have 28 states and each one has their own blend of garam masala.

Try this recipe:

1 oz pure liquor / unsweetened chocolate (the best you can buy)

3 oz regular granulated sugar

8 oz homogonized milk

2 tsp cornstarch

Mix the cornstarch with the sugar.

shave the liquor

bring the milk to a boil

Remove the milk from the heat and add the sugar and liquor and whisk until thick and creamy.

If you want it sweeter, add more sugar. If you want it darker add more liquor. If you want it thinner use less cornstarch, and if you want it thicker, add just a wee bit more.

Let me know how that works for you.

Then you can experiment with various combinationsof the following:

1/2 tsp cinnamon

3/4 tsp chinese 5 spice powder

1/8 tsp cloves

1/2 tsp allspice and cayenne pepper

3/4 tsp garam masala & 1 tsp vanilla (awesome earthy woodsy flavour)

Hope that helps. Let me know how that works for you.

Brad.

Oh... and Iprefer milk chocolate over dark chocolate too! But, shhhhhh! Don't tell anyone!

Hey Adam and Brad,

I know this might sound terrible on such a chocolate forum but I love milk chocolate. Especially cadburys milk drinking chocolate (Chocolaty, milky and sweet). My wife and I have tried to make a hot milk chocolate drink at home a million times using all sorts of recipes we found on the internet but nothing comes close. We want to try to make it from base ingredients. We've tried melting dark chocolate and mixing with dried milk powder and cocoa butter, then putting it all in a pot with some milk. Tastes ok but is still too bitter. Any suggestions on how tomake a good milk hot chocolate without using cocoa powder?

cheers

orin

Hi, Brad. Thanks so much for your feedback. Going through your thoughts in order

1. I agree it could sound pretentious, but its not as evil as it at first looks. My first impulse with the recipe was just take a pre-established blend like Cluizels 72% and sweeten it with a little milk chocolate. But just using even that one pre-blended bar, Id already have South American, African and Javan single origins, as well as vanilla, in the mix. My final product is basically the exact same idea 3 single origins and a little vanilla but with two other single origins in very small proportions to the others, to help round out some of the tones. That said, the Porcelana is in the greatest supply, so its pretty obvious. I just didnt want to go the pure single origin route, as thats where I think the Parisian chefs I referenced seemed to stop.But Ill see if I can rebalance things enough that I can lop off the Chuao, which is what I use in the smallest supply.
2. Im using bars, as Im doing it European/French/Parisian style. Sugar is already incorporated into the tablettes used + the recipe can be more easily sourced and duplicated by purchasing the same bars. If only people would follow any recipe I put out, I would just start with raw cacao and hand-mill it like the Mayans ;)
3. Ive considered the use of cornstarch, but Im trying to stick to the French style and not use it. Going full-on authentic with the ancient recipe, I think wed have to use cornmeal. But Im not entirely opposed to extracting the starch from fresh corn, via more modern methods. Perhaps.

Thanks again for your thoughts. - Adam

Couple of questions:

1. Why create such a complex blend? Without coming across as a jerk, to me the blend sounds pretentious. As soon as you add milk and various spices to it, 99% of the population won't notice the difference. In fact I would hazard a guess that not even the most refined chocolate pallates in the world will be able to pick out the nuancesin the various bars you are using. This is the same philosophy as taking an $80 bottle of shiraz and using it in a stew. It's a waste, as other flavours overpower the delicate nuances in the wine, just as other flavours in your drink (and the milk too) overpower the nuancespresent in each ofthe chocolates you are blending together.

2. Why are you using chocolate? You don't have near the control you would if you used liquor.

3. Traditional drinking chocolate is thickened with corn starch. You can create a very rich, creamy drink without all the fat by using 3.25% homogonized milk and cornstarch. There's enough fat already in the chocolate / liquor. No need to add more in the form of animal fat. At the same time you can boast to your customers that you are taking them closer to the origin of chocolate than the guy next door.

My experience for what it's worth, and we've been written up all over Canada for the drinking chocolate we offer.

Cheers

Brad

Hey Adam,

I Never looked at the science behind hot chocolate making like yourself, thanks for the detailed input.I drink my Chocolat chaud like the mayans. I like to include Cinnamon and Cayenne Pepper in mine. I do not see how the taste gets harsh when you infuse it in milk or cream, you just need the right amount of spices.

Cheers,

Omar

I recently returned from 6 months in Paris, spending a great deal of time with the chocolate and pastry kings. Whether I was talking with Jacques Genin about his work, nudging Pierre Cluizel to try some new ideas at his new chocolate concept store, or just enjoying some Jean-Paul Hvin pieces, the one thing in the back of my mind was . . . their hot chocolate.

They each do great things with their chocolat chaud, but Im possessed with the idea that they havent spent enough time on decadent blends and the science behind what goes into the cup. So Im hoping The Chocolate Life brain trust can offer some insights. Any thoughts you have on the below would be greatly appreciated!

Preface: Im using a blend of bars, in non-equal proportions, as the basis for the hot chocolate Domori Porelana, Amedei Grenada, Cluizel Maralumi Lait, Pralus Ghana, and Bonnat Chuao

1. Ive nailed down the by-weight ratio of liquids to chocolate to about 2:1. While most recipes use a blend of milk and cream, Im obviously using such pricey bars that I want to incorporate as little perceptible milk fat/protein as possible. So, within the liquids, Im using 3 parts whole milk to 1 part water. With constant agitation, I can get the serving temp to about 130 degrees before the emulsion starts to break down and cacao solids come out a bit. Id like to use even less milk and more water, but then the emulsion breaks at lower temps. Any tricks/advice?
2. Regardless of the milk quantity, Im trying to be very sensitive to the milks ultimate temperature. Ive been using the approach baristas take, heating the milk to around 140-145 as a way to exploit the conversion of alpha to beta lactase, helping create a slightly sweeter milk component. Im not seeing any reason to scald the milk, as Im not doing a ganache, and the hydrogen sulfide produced by the breakdown of lactoglobulin (at around 172 degrees) really wrecks the flavor of the end product. Any thoughts or considerations?
3. The only additive flavor Im introducing is vanilla. Ive found that, by doing a 24-hour cold infusion of only 2 grams of a bean in milk, I can flavor 600ml of the end product. I was hoping to weave in some cinnamon, preferably Ceylon, but its proving too harsh at any concentration. Perhaps I should try simply infusing the cinnamon into water, as a way to extract some different nuances. Thoughts or suggestions?
4. Do any of you have any other too-deeply-thought-out hot chocolate recipes that might assist in my little project here? Despite a lot of research, Im not finding any other recipes that get serious about blends, temperatures, and process.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have. - Adam / Paris Ptisseries

Interesting. I didn't realized that was what Dutched meant.

Thanks Ice

Sounds likethe cacaomay have been dutched (alkalised) with either sodium or potassium carbonate to help it dissolve in water.

Kerry

This is a brilliant explanation and addresses the specific taste. The first test I will do is to change the Cacao powder!

Thank you, I'll keep you posted.

John

That's a great plan, Clay.

Will let you know how it goes...

If it is developing a soapy taste then saponification of either the cocoa butter and/or coconut oil is likely at fault. A metallic alkali reacts with a fat or oil to form soap.

Sunfood claims that it's cocoa is 'lower acid' than other cocoa - meaning higher pH and also high in magnesium, therefore I believe making it a 'metallic alkali'.

I'm uncertain if lowering the pH in some way may prevent this from happening, perhaps acidifying your agave in some way.

Certainly, free water in the agave syrup (or any other ingredient) is a contributor.

One way to test this is to make the exact same recipe but leave out the agave. If, in a week, you don't get the taste change you know that the water in the agave is encouraging the growth of something. You can then try an alternative form of sweetener (e.g., coconut palm sugar).

If you do get the taste change, make the recipe removing one ingredient at a time until the taste change does not happen. Now you know what ingredient is reacting with the water in the agave and you can find a substitute.

It may be that the cocoa powder/mass you are using has mold or other spores in it. These are much harder to control than in "cooked" chocolate because of the low temperature processing. You have to be much cleaner working, too.

'Morning Clay,

It's hard to describe. Not moldy, but soapy tasting, almost like it's heading towards rancid...

It has been suggested that maybe it's the water content in the Agave.

Any suggestions are appreciated

Thanks

John

John:

When the chocolate "goes off" what does that mean? Does it start to taste rancid? Is mold growing? What's happening?

Hello
I am making raw chocolate, but having difficulty making it last more than a week or 10 days

I've read through these posts looking for advice. But I am not making it from the bean

I mostly use Sunfoods Raw Cacao Powder/ Mesquite/ Soy Lecithin / Vanilla... sometimes Spirulina
Mix it up and add Cacao Butter / Coconut Oil / Agave until I get a paste
I set it in the fridge and it gets hard (more like a brownie consistency left out)
but after a week it starts going a little off...

I have read the water content in Agave ma make it go bad...?

So i have even done experiments with coconut crystals to sweeten it, so the only binding liquid is the butter, but then the chocolate is too brittle. I like the slightly maleable (almosy brownie like consistency.

How would I go about making this last longer?
Should I use more cacao butter ?
Is there some trick to making it shelf stable?

Thanks so much, in advance
John

Thank you Tom. We did an initial gritty grind in the DR and it has aged for 4 months now. I didn't know if I should age it after I conch it, before the temper and mold. The paste I am using is pretty rugged. I did buy 100 pounds of fermented beans from a farmers cooperative and a women's cooperative roasted the beans over wood and then hand cracked and winnnowed the beans before it was put through a hand grinder. The 12 hour conch seems to work. Thank you again.

I age it once it has been totally finished and moulded into bars. Most dramatic changes in the chocolate taste occur in a period of three weeks after that, from then it seems reasonably stable (I mould pretty much straight after I finish grinding it). This is just my experience from making and eating a serious amount of chocolate in the last 4-5 years. As for conching, you just have to use your taste, I don't ever conch overly long, I like a bright chocolate. Over conching is a sin, it flattens and mutes the chocolate. Only with a very acidic chocolate like madagascar would I conch in the true sense. It takes about 12 h for a 1 kg batch to grind down to sufficient particle size in my Spectra 10, usually I wouldn't do anything more to the chocolate after that. But with a madagascar I would take the lid off and 'conch' (grind further) for about another 6 h, this also depends on ambient temperature also.

The best way to learn is just to make heaps of chocolate and try different things all the time, try lots of different origins too. Importantly taste it all the time at all stages and keep notes.