Forum Activity for @Sebastian

Way to go!  Keep at it, hand tempering will be one of the most useful things you can learn if you plan to be in chocolate.  It's not nearly as terrifying as many belive it to be 8-)

Sebastian/Gap,  just a quick update,  my first hand tempering experiment (with 2 lbs of bean 2 bar dark chocolate) went surprisingly better than I expected (I am sure my climate/humidity controlled chocolate room contributed to this)

I poured the samples in 2"x2"x2" mold (each cavity is 1/4 lbs block) and  I was able to obtain fairly descent shine and snap.  I need to keep practicing with a larger quantity to ensure better and consitent results. 

Thanks for your encouragement!

 IMG_4737.JPG.jpg - 1.1MB

Thanks Sebastian and Gap, I've just ordered an EZt It is a handy tool as It can handle the majority of my couvertures - As far as the 2 ingredient Single Origin Dark I have to practice on hand tempering and check results and take it from there

Cheers!

Tony 

I'd echo hand tempering.  A hot plate/cold box, an aluminum pan, a spatula, and a thermometer will go a LONG way for you.  A few days of practice and you'll have all the skill you need to keep going.  Having an EZ Temper on hand will also result in you being able to very rapidly work with small amounts.

Hi Clay,

Thanks for your response. 

No, there is nothing at the moment.  Its essentially just a concrete box.  An older mixed use building, cinderblocks with a roof is about it. 

The HVAC guy I talked to, said we could also look at just venting out air from the production area- but that would only really work during months where there was cooler air to draw from (outdoors I suppose).

He was very pro-heat pump in a general fashion, saying they are quite efficient energy wise, can provide heating and cooling, and would help to control humidty as well...  Also that as far as size goes, my needs were pretty minimal.

Hi Gap, as far as option 1, unfortunately not skilled enough to perform accurate seedless hand tempering although I have a  Bakon MTD-123 and I do not have a cooling marble and I am not sure how easy can someone aquire this knowledge to end up with the perfect temper in short time? 

As far as option 2, my concern with 1% butter is maintaining a true 100% single origin - But I have too many cases especially with milk based and white based couvertures were I can take advantage of the EZt and adjust the formula accordingly.

Two thoughts:

1. Are you not able to table/hand temper? I can temper 3kg of chocolate in 5-10 minutes and then dump it into a holding tank at working temperature (eg., a Mol d'Art) to mould. By far the cheapest option and it is quick.

2. Couldn't you just adjust your chocolate formula so that when you add 1% ccb from the EZTemper, it all balances out to the exact percentages you want?

Amber -

Without the ability to vent your options are limited. Is there existing HVAC system in the space (in the ceiling) that you can tie into?

Hi Clay,

I have currently a pool of 3 ECGC12-SL Melangers I am expecting to be soon using them all on a daily basis (up to 3 batches/day - 2 to 6 lbs/batch). So we're talking at least 3 product change over per day on the tempering machine.

If my business takes off, I might reach double the batches (up to 6 change overs/day) in the foreseeable future.

So I need for this purpose a tempering machine that this practical for a single person to operate.

Thanks,

Tony

I just got a quote for a heat pump in my facility, in order to be able to use my Selmi (One) during the summer months here in BC.

Does anyone have any comments, experience or insights into this chicken and egg situation?  I have in the past, just accepted that my production slows in the summer.  But business is thriving, and living in a tourism driven town, our population triples in the summer.  I don't want to begin to market to a segment and not be able to deliver, but I also don't want to invest a few thousand only to find it was the wrong thing to do.

I've squeaked by with a portable air con unit in the past, but results were only mediocre, and venting was an issue.  It ended up making other areas in the space too tropical...

Our space is a concrete building.  The production area is only about 14 x 20, but a wall (with door) separates that into an area approximately the same size.  Also.. I rent the space, so I'm pretty conflicted about this expense.

What kinds of quantities are you talking about needing to temper?

Hello everyone, I am ramping up a new project here. I need to be able to provide multiple clients (on demand and within short notice) with small samples of custom couvertures made to specs inhouse and from scratch (bean to bar). The samples inlcude all types of chocolate dark, milk and white with variable flavors and cacao origin and % ...  

The sample sizes can be as small as 2 lbs and as large as 6 lbs. For this quantities, it is not possible or pratical for me to use any of my largers full automatic tempering kettles/machines due low volume, high product change over frequency and to avoid holding production. So bottom line, I need to set up a dedicated R&D environment for this purpose.

For my R&D environment, I have allocated bunch of existing mini machines that I already own: a behmor 1600 mini roaster, my own inhouse built cracker/winnower and a cocoa town ECGC12-SL melanger, but as far as tempering, I only have a semi-automatic tempering machine (REVOLATION DELTA) and since it is not possible to have in stock an ad-hoc custom couverture seed and for formula accuracy I obviously need a small easy to clean and get ready fully automatic tempering machine where I can pour the ready to temper chocolate directly from the melanger to it and have my sample ready to ship for my clients which I do not currenty own and I have to purchase.

I have checked couple of solutions and I would like your opinion in:

Option 1- Purchase an EZ Temper and use it along with my semi automatic REVOLATION DELTA where I can cool my chocolate manually to 92.5 F (33.6 C) and add 1% cacao silk (Pros - 1K budget, Cons: impact on formula accuracy with 1% cacao butter)  

Option 2- Purchase a fully automatic table top tempering machine like FBM Aura or similar ( Pros: fast, maintain accurate formula - Cons: Expensive and may need more time to have it ready for the next change over)    Any one want to sell a used similar machine?? 

I do not have any experience with EZ Temper or FBM Aura or any table top fully automatic tempering mahcine.  

What are your 2 cents on this??

Many Thanks!

Tony

Don't get one used. I bought a used one in January through ebay, it came broken, and I'm still disputing it with the seller.

TCF Sales distributes new Dedy Guitars.  Please give us a call at 512-201-4443 and I will make you a special price on 7.5 base with 22.5 frame.

Thank you, Tom

Great! Thanks, Clay!

Do not rely on Eataly! I have been disappointed in the selection everywhere I've been - Milan and Turin (two locations).

In Turin if you don't know Gerla - home to some of the only hand-cut gianduia you can buy - go. It's a short walk from Porta Nuova. Pepino is highly thought of for Gelato, and I visited Miretti and I can personally vouch for the gelato there. For lunch, try il Vicolo - the risotto selection is astounding.

In Rome - well that's covered in the post you cited.

IF you can find some GARDINI gianduja with cherries I will gladly pay you for a bar and to ship it to me when you get back.

Bonus Question: I'm assuming I can pick up some of my favorites that I won't be able to visit (ie, Domori and Amedei) at EATALY, but if this is not true, or there is a better chocolate store that carries stock from multiple makers, please guide me towards the light! Thanks, again!

Hello, 'Lifers! While making final preparations for my upcoming trip to Italy, it dawned on me that I should ask this community of ours for some suggestions on the MUST SEE Cioccolatieri! Specifically, I'll only be travelling around on a tight schedule after doing some coursework there, so "unfortunately," I'll be limited in my travels to the following places: Turin, Milan, Venice, Florence, and Rome, so I'm only looking for reccomendations for these cities. Furthermore, I'm fairly knowledgeable on the scene in Torino, so no need to mention Gobino, etc - unless there's a relatively unknown cioccolatiere or a specific confection (beyond gianduotti and bicerin) that I must know about. Also, feel free to shout-out your favorite Gelato or Caffe experiences - they'll be well received, I assure you.

Finally, I'll link the 4 forum/blog posts on this site that I've read already, so you won't have to link me to them (though please link any I missed here or elsewhere).

GRAZIE!

https://www.thechocolatelife.com/clay/blog/153/the-best-coffee-and-gelato-in-all-of-rome

https://www.thechocolatelife.com/roxanne-browning/blog/501/inspiring-journey-to-italy-from-the-north-to-sicily-for-old-new-chocolates-wines

https://www.thechocolatelife.com/vera-hofman/blog/397/visiting-turin-the-chocolate-capital-of-italy-and-the-cioccola-to-festival-march-1-5-2012

https://www.thechocolatelife.com/su/blog/154/ah-italy-the-foodthe-chocolate

Brad -

Just a quick note. Chocolat Naive produces a tempered chocolate bar that has honey in it. And they temper it in a continuous tempering machine. And it was not easy to figure it out how to do it. But - it's not impossible. 

I have an update. Whatever I did, I may have just changed my process and resolved the issue.

I changed too much to say that any one thing was the problem, so I wont venture to guess.

This time, I heated the stones, disassembled in the oven until they were reading 130F/54C

After assembly I added all of the ingredients very slowly.  77oz of cocoa nibs (i dont pregrind) took 2.5 hours. I'd add a little and let it go until they were liquid, then add more, etc.  I also added the sugar after 12 hours and again, it took about 45 mins to add the 23oz of sugar to total a 100oz batch.

Chocolate did get into the axle, but I'm seeing zero grit or granite dust. The wheels never seized, and the batch came out perfectly.  Surprisingly, I didnt even make it to the 24 hour mark in refining before it was done.

Something else I changed, I pulled the batch as soon as it was done.  I'm used to the santha, where if it's done at an inopportune time, I can release the tension on the wheel assembly and let it run indefinately (i've let the santha run for 2 weeks one time with no ill effects on the chocolate batch) 

So, if anyone else is seeing the issue, I might suggest adding your ingredients more slowly and be sure to preheat the drum/stones.  I'm also timing the time I put my batches in so that I can plan around pulling the batch and tempering/molding them up.

My thinking here is that the batch is finishing and getting fine particles sooner than I was expecting, and letting it run longer essentially had the effect of having granite run against granite, creating some of the dust.  I'm also thinking that adding just too much of the coarse dry ingredients also didnt help any at the dust creation.  Having too many of the dry ingredients too quickly also allowed the coarser particles into the axle shaft which allowed wearing down the axle, potentially grinding on the stone inside the gap. 

By all means, if my thinking is flawed; let me know. I've been known to be wrong once or twice

Note: I also put both machines through the dry sugar run, scrubbed them down completely and such in the process. So I think it's the combo of the bed-in process in addition to precautionary steps that combined to bring out a perfect batch. 77% 2 ingredient chocolate came out exactly as expected. I'm going to test on a milk chocolate batch before I try another white chocolate batch.

Thank you to everyone that gave input/suggestions here. It was greatly appreciated!

Thank you so much!  Unfortunately I think the extra frames puts this well out of range for me. I really only need one frame and the set brand new is $1400 for one.  So I do appreciate it but I'll have to pass on the large set. Thank you!  

I have a Dedy with 4 frames. $1,800 + Shipping

The 22.5 mm frame is missing 4 wires.  I bought replacement wire, but cannot find it.  Ten of the wires have heavy size 8 wire.  Three wires have the original size 6 wire.  I've really enjoyed the thick wire.  It hasn't broken and it's allowed me to cut caramels.  

You could certainly argue that "raw" cocoa butter isn't raw. BTW I would hazard a guess you had a batch with some fermentation issues, I don't think anything gets conched.

Like everyone else in the world (lol) I am in search of a lower priced Dedy all metal guitar with frame.  I am open to different sized frames.  

If you have one please contact me by and include pictures with asking price.  

Thanks!

Ok Clay.  Then the answer is very simple:

Honey is essentially a liquified sugar which contains 17-20% water by weight - enough to make it fluid, but not enough to allow pathogen growth (the well known golden 80% rule in the confectionary industry)

Water interferes with the crystalization of cocoa butter, causing it to thicken drastically, or sieze altogether. 

Chocolate is a finely balanced SUSPENSION of solid particulate in a fat (COCOA BUTTER) that exhibits certain, controllable behaviours.  Adding another type of fat, or a liquid to the chocolate - even in small amounts - inevitably messes with the ability of the fat to behave in the manner needed.

ergo, honey plus cocoa paste/chocolate = "ganache" and ganache cannot be tempered like a chocolate bar.

That's one of the (several) reasons manufacturers don't use honey to sweeten chocolate.

- See more at: https://www.thechocolatelife.com/fine-raw-chocolate-factory/forums/15842/fbm-chocolate-machine-for-sale#sthash.VBn0sD4L.dpuf

All -

I do not want this post to get into a discussion on the flavor/health benefits/merits (or lack thereof) or validity of raw chocolate - there are other threads that cover those issues. 

Lets stick to the topic: tempering, and how the addition of honey affects tempering. That is a question that applies to all chocolates, not just "raw" chocolates.

You say in your post above that you are using cocoa paste.  Does it taste like chocolate?  If so it isn't even remotely raw, and you shouldn't market it as such whether you're using honey or not.

JUST LIKE COFFEE BEANS DON'T TASTE LIKE COFFEE UNTIL THEY ARE ROASTED, COCOA BEANS DON'T TASTE LIKE CHOCOLATE UNTIL THEY HAVE BEEN ROASTED.  PERIOD.  PEOPLE LIE.  CHEMISTRY DOESN'T.

Furthermore, 99.9% of the cocoa paste you buy today goes well over the threshold for "raw" during the grinding and refining process (I have personally ground 10's of thousands of lbs of cocoa beans into cocoa paste.  I know what I'm talking about)

Given that cocoa beans don't taste like chocolate until they are roasted, and cocoa beans aren't called chocolate beans, and the trees aren't called chocolate trees, there is no such thing as "Raw Chocolate".  There is however, such a product as sweetened cocoa paste - exactly like you are making.

...but it's not chocolate, or anything close.

The Mast Brothers piss Clay off, and Raw Chocolate makers piss me off.  Why?  Both lie.

Brad

we had one batch of raw cacao butter doing that to our chocolate. It gave a more waxy feel to the chocolate and had a weird aftertaste.  I'm wondering if it has anything to do with the conching process as maybe volatiles were trapped in the cacao during processing and not allowed to escape.  We just told the supplier and got some from a different batch and were good again.

Thanks for both your inputs, I am going to experiment using dry sweeteners although I did really want honey to work out, I just can't afford to have half my batches not turn out well. I will calibrate the temperature on the machine as well.  My last batch I lowered the room temperature and it turned out great so that may be a huge issue.  I always run a dehumidifier in the room on days I make chocolate but I live in a humid climate so even with the dehumidifier running all day it still is usually 50-55% RH.  I use dehumidifying packs in the fridge as well. They are rated to dehumidify a small room so are ample enough for the fridge.  It's the same as those little packs you get in some products except I got large canisters of them that are reusable by drying in an oven.

Keeping a notebook is a great idea, I may try that. Thanks for all your tips.  I'm going to experiment on a few of those and see how it goes.

Thanks for the info, very appreciated. I have found that my extra dark flavor which is 90% cacao and 10% honey tends to have the best luck while my other flavors are around 15% honey and I have lots of problems. I'm guessing the 90% may be under the threshold of moisture which is why it works better. I did the last batch without coconut oil but still used the honey and I had problems again but remelted and retempered and lowered the temperature of the room I was working in and had better luck. I'm going to try a batch without the honey and use cane sugar and see if that completely solves the problem. My packaging is labelled as using honey though and I still have a lot of packaging to go through so may have to make a sticker to go over the ingredient list.

As far as the issues with raw, I realize that technically the fermentation process almost always goes over the proper temperatures however I do find a distinct difference in raw vs roasted chocolate. For one raw chocolate is highly stimulating and gives you a euphoric feeling due to the theobromine, serotonin, anandamide, and PEA. There is debate over theobromine and whether its good or bad.  It is a stimulant so I'd categorize it the same as caffeine and say it's ok in moderation. I have tried tons of the raw chocolate bars on the market and most of them don't give me those same feelings so I'm guessing the ones that don't are using cacao that has gone over the temperatures that have destroyed some of these properties but I'm not sure. I used to be all about raw however after reading much I'm indifferent about it.  I'd say its definitely not the healthy food that it's claimed to be however I'd say it's definitely not any worse than regular chocolate. I never get the euphoric feeling from a regular chocolate bar either.

With using honey I was trying to create something that was a little better than whats available as I do believe honey is a healthier sweetener in moderation than most others out there. My bars are dark with the highest percentage of honey being 15% and I also add hemp to my bars as an added bonus.  It's rare to find chocolate sweetened with honey and now I realize why.  I found one company based in the US that does and I sent them an email asking about how they get away with it.  They haven't replied yet but hopefully they don't feel threatened as I'm in Canada and offer no competition to them and just want to know how they get a nice temper on their product.

Again, thanks for the info.

Thank you @clay.

Neither would most natural butter 8)

A couple of other ideas. 

Using honey in a Chocovision machine may reduce the amount of mixing getting done. If the CB crystals are not distributed evenly then streaks on the front or back will be common. Break a bar at a streak to see if there is a difference in temper in the cross-section. If there is it is probably insufficient mixing, at least in part.

Also - you're working in small batches and even minute changes to the recipe and ambient humidity will affect the rheology of the chocolate, which will affect temper. You need to assess the temper for every batch, not rely on the machine to do it for you, or rely on a specific set of temperatures. This is a common problem that people who make chocolate fail to take into account. The recipe might be "the same" but small differences in processing and mixing can make a difference in the working characteristics of a chocolate.

Calibrating thermometers is important, but it's also important to know what the temp and RH are in the immediate vicinity of the tempering machine. Keep a notebook and when things don't go as planned, you might find that temps and/or humidity are part of the issue.

I would melt out some of both, mix them in varying percentages, solidify them, then taste against your original.

Also, not questioning your taste buds, but I have never seen a lot of cocoa butter that varied in the lot.

Hey Clay, Peter & Sebastian,

thanks so much for the feedback! We did of course order samples beforehand and seeing as it's the second time we've ordered from this supplier, we do have a good relationship and generally feel that the produce is at a high level. I suppose that there's not really much they can do if this is indeed part of the natural variation. It seems that this only affects a smaller part of the entire delivery.

I suppose my question now is: Is it possible to use these pieces with the nicer looking ones, say in a ratio of 1:10, without impacting the quality, smell or taste of the final product? Or maybe a different ratio?

The messaging system is set up so that messages can only be sent to people who follow each other. This is make it impossible for spammers to join the site and then immediately start contacting members privately and spamming them. Members have the option to auto-approve followers or to manually approve them (the default). Go to your profile page and look at the "Approve Followers" checkbox.

Of course, a deodorized cocoa butter could not remotely be considered raw.

I agree, I would not spend too much time chasing the adulteration angle, it will probably lead nowhere (and cost you a bit). The bigger question is- did you sample the lot before you bought it? Natural cocoa butter is variable from lot to lot, we would NEVER buy without a preshipment sample.

Mold will never be an issue as long as your butter has not gotten wet.  If it's stored improperly and gets wet, all kinds of things can go wrong.  The butter in your photos is not wet.

Insects can attack cocoa butter, but it's incredibly rare.  I've only ever seen it once. 

Re: comproimsed cocoa butter - it's actually quite easy to 'blend in' other oils to cheapen it, and can be measured/identified spectroscopically.  It's done with olive oil all the time (much of the 'pure' olive oil on stores shelves isn't as 'pure' as claimed).  It's very technical, and not many people know how to do it.  I'd probably not spend much time chasing that down if i were you, to be honest.

Hi Sebastian,

thank you so much for the feedback! that would definitely be the best case scenario so I'm happy to hear that! Do you happen to know if there is any kind of mould or insect that could even potentially attack cacao butter? I have heard about it for cacao beans but I'm not sure wether cacao butter has a suited environemnt for that kind of thing, seeing as it's pure fat.

Also, do you know of any tests that can be done to determine wether the raw ingredients are not compromised? 

All the best,

Sanja