Forum Activity for @brian horsley

The 2012 version of Peru's cacao and chocolate salon takes place July 4-8. I'm not connected to the salon in any way, although I may give a presentation, the organizers have yet to confirm. The website is poor but the link is:

http://www.salondelcacaoychocolate.pe/index.html

BecauseI live and work with cacao farmers in the campo here in Peru, I sometimes feel disconnected with the world of chocolate, despite being directly involved in it. If any chocolate life members are planning to come to Peru for the salon, i'd love to get together, have a chance to speak english, and gain new perspectives on the cacao and chocolate industries.

If anyone has any questions about the salon, peru, or travel to peru, let me know and I'll be glad to help as time and internet connection permits. I look forward to meeting any intrepid types who make the trip.

brian

Hi i am using the Chocolate artist software and am getting on with it realy well, the problem i have is finding a company in the uk that makes chocolate boxes to fit the size of the chocolates used with the magnetic molds. The inserts all seem to be to small, is there anywhere in the united states that i can order them from.

many thanks

Hi Arthur,

I thought I'd give an update.

I took your advice - I have made a cooling place - I put sides below a work table, and fitted a portable air conditioner in it with a vent to outdoors for the warm air part. (I also had to take the air conditioner apart and adjusted the thermostat to give me lower temperatures). I now have a cupboard with dryer air and I can get from room temperature down to 8 degrees C if I want it that low. The shelves have different temperatures, so I can move the molds about to try to copy your figures.

The results have been great - thanks for all your help.

Tony

Thanks Paul, Yes im using this procedure and i am getting the condensation because we pack them right after we get them from the freezer.

Hi Arthur,

Do you know if the humidity meter is ISO certified?

Thanks

Omar

Hi Arthur,

That is really interesting, you obviously are an expert.

Thanks for the link too.

As you may have gathered from my previous post, I'm not a youngster, and in my previous work I have always tried hard to know the theory behind the practice - I'm slowly getting to grips with chocolate.

My chocolate work has slowed for a time as I've been fitting out my "chocolate kitchen" - I've got a couple of dogs, so I have made a second kitchen in my house to keep them dog-hair free.

Thanks again for your time.

Tony

Hi Tony,

In ideal world the chocolates should fall out of the mould when you flip it over, which is the result of using a right method: preheating mould, cooling at the right temperature and time, then demoulding.

The way the cooling has to work is basically in a curve, ideally in a manufacturing there a cooling tunnels used for that, we have four sections in a cooling tunnel, which are set at the following temperatures: going in - 16C(10min.) 14C(10min.) 13C(10min) and 16C(10 min). Total cooling time = 40minutes. the reason for such a high temperatures at the inlet and outlet is to do with shock. A bit of a detail- http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=shock%20chocolate%20cooling&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CEkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgermany.croklaan.com%2FSystem%2FDownload.asp%3Fdocument%3DImportance%2520of%2520correct%2520cooling_tcm47-6245.pdf%26documentTitle%3DImportance%2520of%2520correct%2520cooling%26Registration%3Dyes&ei=0FvIT_j0O8uGhQeKrcS7Dw&usg=AFQjCNFCx3h1hyAYMqbpywkdNgLYTpKD3A

Hi Arthur,

Thanks for the information - I did buy a cheap gadget to measure the humidity - but it is too cheap, I bought a second one and they are 10% different! So I think I will buy a more accurate one.

Can you explain -cool "from 16 down to 13C, then again 15/16C" ... so I cool it to 13 then let it warm a little at 15/16 for 40 minutes? The problem I see is getting the mold to release the casing if I don't cool it low enough.

When I started with chocolate I had no idea that the science was more important than anything else - it's brought back school work of 50 years ago! I find myself comparing the way chocolate works with the way iron and steel solidify and crystalise, which, I assume, is the basis of the word "tempering" - with steel one heats, cools rapidly (hardening), then re-heat to a specific temperature (tempering) to get the properties one requires. I didn't think I'd ever use the metallurgy I learned!

I find it fascinating, and presents such a wide spectrum of challenges.

Thanks again,

Tony

What creates moisture/condensation- is when you have a difference between your roomtemperatureand fridge(if an open type one) is more than 5C.

I personally would not put chocolate in a freezer even for 5 minutes because you are 'shocking' the chocolate, where's HAS to be slowly cooled going from 16C down to 13C and then again 15/16C for about 40 minutes- that's ideal life- what 'chocolate guru's' are saying.

I have this problem at work every year where chocolates coming out of the cooling tunnel are wet, covered with condensation, which I personally think is to do with the humidity in the room, which in some rainy summer days is more thanRh.

I would highlyrecommendgo to Maplin shop and buy this- http://www.maplin.co.uk/humidity-and-temperature-probe-meter-220815 . Do some measures on a daily basis and you'll find that maybe it is really a matter of buying a dehumidifier or changing your fridge onto a small cooling system, that can be custom made and does not require huge capex.

Regards, Arthur

Hi,

Thanks, Paul,

Sounds sensible advice.

There is a lot to learn in this activity!

All the best,

Tony

I make chocolate in Costa Rica. We hand temper our chocolate and use a chest freezer to cool the chocolate. Being a very warm humid environment, we encountered the same thing. The best way to avoid condensation on your chocolate is to move the chocolate from the mould into the air tight container before leaving the freezer. Once the chocolate is broken out and placed in the container it can be removed to warm gradually to the ambient temperature. Once the chocolate warms up it can be removed and packaged. No cold surfaces touching warm humid air means no condensation. Give it a try!

@Edward.

no need to do that if you have well pre-crystallized chocolate. after moulding for 10min +8+10C fridge and that's it

That's good to know, Edward and thanks for the tip.

I've been making casings for praline, so the thickness presumably is not a problem - but may be if I do thicker moldings, so I'll remember your tip.

The problem is definitely sugar bloom, I've made a couple of more batches so will see what happens.

This is what I've tried. Firstly I have used a microwave instead of twin-pan to cut down on steam. I have taken the temperature in the fridge and raised it a bit (ok for the chocolates, but not so good for dairy products - so I've stuck the thermometer in the salad tray at the bottom of the fridge to see what the temperature is like there - just waiting for it to settle down.

The humidity has been high here (I live in a rural part of the UK, we have had a lot of rain recently and now it's getting warmer. I'm now able to measure the humidity and it has been up to 90% - I have bought a dehumidifier, the kitchen is small so it can easily bring the humidity down.

Of course now I've changed several variables at once - so perhaps it will be more difficult to isolate the culprit - but if I get good results I can stick at whatever works.

I really would like to thank you and Rene for your help.

I will come back to give an update in a few days - but in the meantime welcome any other ideas.

Thanks again

Tony

Freezers are notorious for condensation--no more than 5 mins tops.

You didn't say how thick your molds are, this is important.

You also didn't say if your bloom was fat bloom or sugar bloom. Sugar bloom will feel sharp and gritty when you rub it with your fingers, fat bloom will feel greasy. Sugar bloom is the culprit with humidity issues

What might be the culprit with fat bloom is "latent heat build-up". This is where the chocolate is poured too thick and the core or center can't cool down fast enough. You see this a lot in molded figures like easter bunnies or Santas. This is how I deal with it:

When I do solid bars, and mine are no more than 1/4" thick, (6 bars to a mold) I do it in two steps::

First, I pour in about half, vibrate, scrape clean, and depending on room temp, may or may not pop them in the fridge. When solid, I pour the next or top layer, scrape clean and repeat.

Let us know when you do your next batch

Thank you for your reply Rene.

I have been getting a good "snap" to the chocolate, with it hardening well and with a good shine - the bloom appears after a few days.

I will try altering the temperature in the fridge, I have one for my normal cooking and another one I can use for the chocolate - so I can have this at a higher temperature.

I will also try using a microwave and not a double pan.

Thanks again,

Tony

hi.

what i would not use is the freezer because mould is warm and because of that when you put it in the freezer there will be moisture already inside the mould and bloom afterwards for sure.

also after closing the box you have different temperature and humidity in the box and fridge/freezer so there will be moisture in the box that causes bloom. chocolate does not like rapid temperature changes and moist. that is why there are humidity controlled fridges for chocolate and pastry that are +12+15C and ideal +18C in the prep.room. in normal fridge you risk always with high moisture and odors that affect taste and also the temperature is bit too low. but there might be something else too because i have kept in early years my chocolate in box or open in fridge and didn't have bloom.

and another thing is using double pan...that means a lot of moisture right into your chocolate. better use microwave.

when you pre-crystallize chocolate by hand then use so called 'marble' that means pre-crystallizing on table...preferably on stone plate/slab because there you add MOVEMENT needed for the chocolate crystals and that is the essential thing for best characteristics of the product...not the thermometer reading.

this is what i do when i dont have machinery:

+45C->2/3 on marble->move /fold->stir back with 1/3->sample.

when sample on your pallet knife hardens in 2-3 minutes then you are in business

good luck

rene

it is actually not correct to talk about 'tempering' because it's not the temperature but mainly the crystals that we need in chocolate and those right crystals form when you give the chocolate movement or motion.

if you pour melted cacaobutter on table and you let it cool down...and then heat up a little then what dou you see? nothing. it has not crystallized. why? but when you move your finger in it it will. why? because of the movement you gave.

so it's the movement or motion you give that is important to create and line up crystalls the way we need

cheers.

rene

Thanks for your reply Andy.

The tempering aid is Mycryo, but I did have the same problem tempering without the Mycryo.

I have been following the tempering system of heat, let cool, warm a bit while stirring, but the Mycryo instructions leave the last warming stage out - presumably as the mycryo is pure crystals of cocoa butter so it seeds quickly.

I do wonder what temperature I should cool the molded chocolate so it shrinks from the mold but does not get too cold to cause the condensation.

Any ideas?

Thanks again,

Tony

Chocolate is very nuanced. Welcome to the learning curve. :D

You mention you are getting bloom, but is this bloom happening after the condensation? That could be the problem in general. Condensation will aid in pulling the sugars out and when they dry you'll easily have sugar bloom.

AFAIK, I've never seen cold effect bloom. It can create cracking as chocolate shrinks as it cools. Humidity and your tempering methods are more a possibility.

In general your tempering methods need to be exacting. Tempering is usually a raising of temperature, a lowering of temperature, then a raising of temperature (not too much--dependent on kind) again. Extended tempers can even repeat the reduce and raise.

Was your blooming happening before you added agents to it? Did the same occur when you were doing the seed chocolate? You mention these tempering aid's (not familiar) but what is your main chocolate you are using. Is the whole thing a semi-sweet? Probably some of the easiest chocolate to work with is in this range.

Lots of fantastic resources and books out there.. You can find many recommendations for PierreWybauw, the CIA's book Chocolate Confections, or even some more soft books like Making Artisan Chocolates or Chocolate Obsession might help.

Keep a log, record whatvariablesyou can, and keep up the trials. It's not easy but once you find the rhythm and reason you'll forget a lot of the early setbacks. :D

Hello!

I'm new to this, so will welcome any advice.

I'm tempering by hand, using a double pan, recently using tempering aid but have also used the "adding extra chocolate to seed" method.

I have fairly consistent results (after buying several thermometers of increasing accuracy and price!).

The inconsistency is that some chocolates gain a white (sugar?) bloom, not a butter one, when stored for a week in a sealed plastic container.

For this question I'll add specific information: Callebaut 54%, tempering aid, heat to 45C, cool to 34C (adding the aid then), stir well.

I then pour into polycarbonate moulds, put into a freezer for a few minutes, then knock them out. By the time I have put them into a box they have condensation on them.

I have the same problem if I use a fridge and not a freezer.

I've just bought a hygrometer so I can see the humidity in the room, and a dehumidifier which I plan to use tomorrow.

Perhaps I'm cooling them too much, so any advice about temperature would be useful. Perhaps it's just too humid - it's certainly not too hot in the room right now! Should I keep them in a sealed box with silica gel?

It's just so disappointing, I thought I'd started to get the hang of all this!

Thanks

Tony

You should be fine. My experience has been that it is the milk fats that will turn. White chocolate has the shortest shelf live. I can keep that for at least a year if kept dry, dark and cool. Dark can be kept for years.

I have a block of Callebaut 70% dark couverture which shows an expiry date of late Aug 2011. Also a block of Callebaut 56% dark with the same date. They have been stored in a cool room in containers. What's the general rule for using chocolate that is over its expiry date? What about others like white and milk chocolate?

ouch!

never been a fan of "raw" whatsoever chocolate.

It is a painful exercise to explain every time the truth behind the "raw".... who know where this accident will bring... Is this the end of the "raw"?

i don't wish anyone to go out of business, but

maybe a bit of rules by the FDA will bring some clarity to the matter.

<grin>

Bloody stools and possible kidney failure are a small price to pay for higher antioxidants.

A link to the recall notice is up on the FunFresh web site - buried at the bottom of pages.

Sebastian is right, companies that are promoting raw chocolate products are going to have to institute strict controls to ensure their products are safe. This includes documented GMPs, sanitization steps, as well as post-manufacturing testing.

http://www.fda.gov/Safety/Recalls/ucm303012.htm

It should be obvious to everyone what my position is on this matter by now. It's good to be aware of enforcement efforts to emphasize that the danger is real. We will be seeing increased enforcement activities in this area.

Roma:

This sounds like just the sort of thing Chef Rubber might be able to do.

Hello Everyone,

I'm wondering where I can find something like an impression mat. I make chocolate bars and I would like the underside of the bar to read the name of the bar. Does anyone know of anyone that custom makes this sort of thing? Since I run a super small operation, I would just need a few of them.

Any insight is greatly appreciated!

Best,

Roma

In the Dominican Republic the differential between fermented and unfermented cacao is called Hispanola and Sanchez respectively. I was wondering how do they differentiate in other countries around the world? I have read that somewhere between 12 and 15 percent of the cacao out of the DR is fermented. Other countries like Grenada all the cacao is fermented from what I have read. How are the different types of cacao labeled in other countries and which countries have more fermented cacao and why?

FYI There is a small town on the Samana Peninsula called Sanchez. From what Don Hector Rizek told me, because the cacao was shipped out of the town it was called Sanchez. I guess no one fermented Dominican cacao back then.

Does anyone know when fermentation started to develop in countries like the Dominican Republic and when the name Hispanola was first used?

Thank you Brian, This looks like a very good bar packaging solution.

Eileen

Here is someone I have worked with http://eco-friendlypackaging.com/ . Very eco friendly and Paul is willing to work with realitively low minimums.

brian

Thanks Wendy! Will check it out.

Hi,

I came across this source: http://gourmetbusinessdirectory.com/ that I've kept in my favorites. They seem to have a lot of useful sourcesfor small food business, that might lead you to helpful sources. You have to dig through their links (past the constant ad for you to upgrade and buy their info.), but I recall finding info. for my own state there that I hadn't found else where.

Wendy

I am also searching for eco friendly options for packaging on a smaller scale. I am currently using paper backed foils and would like to use eco foil , or recycled paper. I make 1 ounce bars and also hearts and soon other shapes. How does one go about displaying the different shapes?

Hi Eileen,

Have you had any luck finding vendors for your packaging specifications? The packaging manufacturers and distributorsthat I have found only do high volume, I haven't found anyone making less than tens of thousands of packaging materials at a time. I am also looking for either lightweight cardboard or heavyweight paper wrappers, as well as chipboard boxes to display the wrapped bars. If you or any other chocolate life members have any leads they would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

Adam

Hello Everyone

I'm trying to decide on the best packaging options and wanted to get feedback in terms of price, ease of use in automated manufacturing, durability, printing issues, etc.

I'm looking to produce a 3 oz and 1.5 oz bar and I currently have the option of the typical film bar flow wrap that is mechanically sealed on both ends.

However, I really like the idea of having the bar in a plain film flow wrap but then using a cardboard box to enclose it. My reasons are that the addition of the box looks more premium, easier in terms of storage and shipping, more printing copy space, and for customer convenience in that the consumer can use the box to store the uneaten chocolate.

Is this too costly to do? How difficult is this to do?

Does anyone have any recommendations on suppliers and pricing?

Thanks so much!

Clay,

The free sharing nature of this site is what makes it so special. That fact that people from all over the globe can discuss their chocolate passion and share knowledge is remarkable and would be nice to remain as is.. Tom brings up an interesting concept of an online magazine. With all the travels you've done I'm sure you could create some great content as well as have contributors. I miss Cocoaroma Magazine and would be happy to purchase a subscription to read the kind of articles , see the pictures etc. That magazine had interesting historical content as well as visits to places around the equator. I loved the chocolate shop and store window photos as they gave me ideas for my own displays and packaging. I read it cover to cover and sold it in my store.

just saying...

Clay, this site is by far and away the site I visit the most, several times a day, I have learnt an incredible amount, made many contacts and contributed in kind, though I do tend to answer most of my own posts. I think the free and sharing nature of this site, a nature that you have fostered is an excellent one and hopefully it inspires others to do the same. I for one have met many growers from Australia's neighbouring countries and have consulted to them on many aspects of small scale chocolate making, roasting profiles, formulations, feedback on beansetc. I don't charge forthis 'service', I taught myself chocolate making from this site and chocolatealchemy, from information provided freely and I pass that along. By doing this however, I get something much more valuable, I have built a up a wealth of knowledge and experience in local cacao and eaten a fair bit of it too!

As for paying for something on here, I don't know, I can't think of anything, maybe others can,I feel thoughit would impinge on the sharing nature of the site. Sure, though, people have to make money.

Actually, one thing I would pay for would be a 'Chocolate Life Magazine' (online)with well written and nicely edited stories. You do get that sort of thing onthis siteand from the blogs of chocolate makers etc but they are all a bit piece meal and you have to remember to go back for an update, and not all the info is in the one place in a easily digestible form. Editing an online magazine would be very time consuming though.

This is one of my favorite sites and I have also learned a great deal here. I enjoy reading about what people are doing around the world related to cacao production and appreciate all the expertise I have found among the members and Clay. I have no complaints.

Hi Gordon,

i have started following your website just about a year ago and i have really learned a lot. I also have shared my notes on beans, roasting and participated on a lot of discussion.

I found so interesting to contribute together with people from the 4 side of the world.

I understand you fear to loose control of the situation by someone pointing bad at your forum, but generally speaking this is a "open source" of knowledge: Someone like me will use to learn, someone will use to "spy" and someone just for the fun of accusing.

I like it, and i enjoyed discussions that are technically orientated.

I think Clay, you should still have input to the forum with your own discussion, opening up the forum to new ideas but also having a look at trends and political decision regarding chocolate (like the story about Fair trade)

Paying, not sure about... no one like to pay for sharing information.... and who will make the money? the Forum owner or the people that put the informations?

an online book library could be a cool idea.... small year fees, unlimited access and if i want to buy a Hard Copy of one of the books, a good discount should apply...

my 2 South African Rand of suggestions..

Cheers

Antonino

One option that is open to me on the Ning platform is toputsome"premium" content and features behind a pay wall. I am not saying I am going to do this, just that I can - and I want community input on this as well as other ideas for providing new services and features to members.

1) What kind(s) of content would you be willing to pay for?

2) How much would you be willing to pay for it?