Forum Activity for @timwilde

Off the bat, I can say that honey may cause issues. Honey contains water, and water and chocolate dont mix. It can cause the chocolate to seize and pull the cocoa solids out of suspension. However, whatever your doing you're getting to the point where you can pour into molds.  The issue looks similar to what I've been fighting all chocolate season. No matter how I temper, the molds wont set right and they fall out of temper.

Two things that solved the issue for me is a) double check your thermometer and calibrate your tempering machine. It may not be working right as the thermistor may have drifted somewhat and if possible you may need to recalibrate that, or work around what the drift is. Part of my issue is my thermometer was off by over 4F, so when I was tempering I thought I was "within range" but in fact, I was 4F hotter than the upper limits of the range, so I was never actually in temper to begin with.  That may or may not be your issue here, but after 2 consecutive years having similar issues it's my first go-to troubleshooting step when tempering is an issue.

Second is the temp your molds are setting up/cooling in.  If that's too warm, the chocolate can fall out of temper.  From trial and error experience as well as reading a bit online, optimum room temp to deal with chocolate is between 68-70F/20-21C  It may be beneficial to get a cooling tunnel, cold box, or some sort of cooling area for the chocolate.  Optimum temps based on various forum posts seem to be 55F/12.8C, I'm still working on my cold box which is a temperature controlled fridge setup with a fan inside for airflow.  55 is my starting temp.

You have a chance of running into issues using a fridge, although it is quite possible and many do that without issue.  The problem is a refrigerator will end up by being too cold. And as a result if you leave the molds in too long, condensation is a very real risk. If condensation forms it can cause sugar bloom and ruin the batch. 

Something else to note that you didnt mention: Are you performing a temper test to ensure the tempering machine is giving you proper temper or are you relying on the machine to give you tempered chocolate?  The reason I ask is you can see my results. My room temp rose up to 74F/23.3C. Which, frankly, is normal for my area.  However, I'd get a clean temper test, but the molds would start to swirl and/or discolor.  The back swirls are obvious, the discoloration of the chocolate touching the molds wasnt any different in most respects than what you've shown.

 74f_room_temp_Temper.jpg - 42KB

Note: As far as will they attack beans or finished product, they may prefer beans but if you give them access to finished goods they WILL get to them. Guaranteed.

Emulsifier will not help in your situation.

1. Honey contains about 17% water, every 10% of honey in your recipe brings in 1.7% water content. Water content in chocolate generally should be below 0.3% total.

2. Coconut oil is not compatibile with cocoa butter and any additions will create difficulties in tempering or make it impossible.

I'm afraid that we may be talking a very different language and the same words may have very different meanings.

As Brad pointed out earlier in this thread may people would consider "raw chocolate" somewhere in the "misleading customer" category as usually the ingredients used are not raw and product produced is not what a "reasonable jury" would consider chocolate. This means that if this thread continues there may be some strong opinions on what you are trying to do. Proceed at your own risk.

Could you please describe what are you trying to achieve, how are you making your chocolate and what are you planning to do with it?

Hi. I am interested but could not send you a private message. Please feel free to email @ blueasters115@yahoo.com. Thanks

Yeah, I fear I'll have to eliminate those ingredients, Any idea if adding an emulsifier would help me keep honey as a sweetener? The coconut oil i'm willing to eliminate, it makes the chocolate softer which is nice but if it interferes with tempering it can be eliminated.

Our recipe was developed before we started tempering our chocolate and kept it refrigerated instead so it worked great then but with tempering it has given problems

I would strongly suggest looking at recipe.

Adding honey as a sweetener introduces a lot of water into the product and coconut oil will seriously impact tempering process.

32 in Montezuma chocoalte fountain-

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please call or tx for details: 239-980-9753 Justin

Selling a FCC-4 chocolate case. Its a beautible case but as I have no need for it anymore. Used but in great condition!

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$3,200 OBO+ Buyer pays shipping 

Please call or tx for information: 239-980-9753 Justin

 IMG_9744 (800x533).jpg - 196KB

I am doing raw chocolate and have been for a while using cacao paste, cacao butter, coconut oil, and honey as a sweetener. I've been having a lot of troubles with it. Some batches turn out amazing and some look like the pic here. I am trying this next batch without coconut oil to see if that changes things. I'd rather stick with using honey as a sweetener but am also looking into different types of emulsifiers to add that may help with making sure a liquid sweetener will work properly. I am also using a tempering machine so the temperatures are pretty consistent. This was posted a while ago so if you have any tips since you posted this please feel free to share with me, thanks

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I have a Pralinenfix PFM-200 depositor for sale. It has two nozzles (can accomodate 8), is in very good condition, and was only used a few times. This is all stainless steel and very heavy duty. It's perfect for dispensing chocolate into polycarbonate molds and has very accurate and adjustable dispensing amounts. This unit has a heated nozzle deck - uses 110v, single-phase, standard plug.

I'm asking $2,500.  Please email me for photos and/or questions.  (We are no longer in business and this is the last remaining piece of equipment.)

Thanks.

Nora (noraj003@yahoo.com)

Well, it looks like Erin pointed out that the plastics are made from Delrin.  I can tell from experience with that material that it doesnt expand/contract with heating very much at all.  

As for the flavor of the chocolate that got up that hot, it was good. This was a 2 ingredient batch that was being refined and ended up by getting a little more bitter/cocoa flavors and some of the more delicate notes were cut out.  I cant say it was bad or good compared to normal, this was the first real batch like that with that percentage (77%) that I've made. So I really have nothing to compare it to.

After noting the higher heat though, I did realize that I was kind of taking advantage of the higher sheer power of the Wonder grinders and adding things a little faster than I would in, say, my Santha.  So that may be the sole reason it got quite *that* hot.  Generally, if you're more careful and steady about adding the ingredients, the friction would be limited and thus the heat.

so, I *think* I have a mystery solved.  At least for the seizing wheels anyway.  The way that the axle became coated as shown in the pics, the materials seemed almost "baked" on in addition to being super sticky. I *think* the assembly wasnt fully dried prior to reassembling. This would add moisture, which would cause problems.  That, right now, is the only thing I can think of that would have caused the seizing the way it did. 

I'm still somewhat concerned with the amount of granite dust and the silvery dust that caked on the wheels though.

I can almost see the granite dust as being a part of the wear in process which would become lessened as the wheels and bowl get used and cleaned properly...but the silvery glimmery material in the pics above is worrisome.

When adding the sugar the temperature will go up due to the high friction. If you don't want the temperatures to go up that high, you can add the sugar more slowly and/or release some pressure from the top lock which will reduce the friction on the wheels and so the temperature will not increase.  Releasing pressure from the top lock can also help keep your stones spinning if they get stuck.

The bearring material is Delrin (not HDPE) and is stronger, longer wearing, can withstand higher temperatures and is  FDA certified and heavily used in the food processing industry.  

Generally, I wouldn't recommend putting your bowl and stones in the dishwasher.  Melting temp of Delrin is 347 degrees.  

It's great and consistent with our feedback that you are consistently getting refinement in a shorter period of time.  Congrats!

Happy chocolate making!

Erin

A certain percentage of each batch I make turns out like the picture below.  I am not sure what is going on and some batches are worse than others and some are way worse than whats shown in the pic. I use the revolation chocolate tempering machine doing approximately 20 pound batches. The settings are 89 degrees temper point and 6.5 temper delta. I recently changed to these settings as before I was using the default settings on the machine for dark chocolate. It didn't make a difference though. I use polycarbonate molds and I have found that the best way to minimize this problem is to set the chocolate for 30-40 min at room temperature and then give them about 15 min in the fridge.  I tried setting them only at room temperature and that seems to make it worse and I have tried setting straight in the fridge without the room temperature time and that also makes it worse.

I read that it is good to warm the molds before pouring chocolate into them so I tried that and it seemed to make it worse. I do find that the first pour into the molds always works the best but I only have enough molds to do half the batch at a time so must do subsequent batches. I have tried wiping the molds with cotton wipes between pours but that didn't help. It definitely works better after my molds have been cleaned with water and dried properly but that takes a long time to do it between every pour and I generally only do it at the end of the batches. Any suggestions on better ways to clean them between batches?

I use honey as a sweetener so would that have anything to do with it? The bars are around 60% cacao paste, 10% cacao butter and the honey makes up about 20% with the remainder being flavorings. I have a 90% bar that is 90% cacao and only 10% honey and it tends to happen less in that flavor but still happens sometimes. The picture is actually from a batch of 90%.

Please help!

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Hi Clay,  That's one heavy looking beast, should last a long time!   

Please tell me more about the Kleego 50 / 100,  I got some info and brochures recently from Tom at TCF.    Installed units Stateside currently?

Private note if you prefer.  

Thanks   Mark

I'll try the cb lubing the shaft and see if that helps.   The batches I do are typically 100oz batches. (6.25lbs/2.8kg) The 12 hour mark was there to signify that it wasnt any preheating actively heating the chocolate. This was within about 30-40 minutes after I added the sugar so it was at a point of high friction of the grinding/refining process.  This is not common, but noticed it on this particular batch.  Was worried the machine was overheating so I pulled the drum off and checked the machine. It was running at normal operating temps. The santha I've never seen a batch go above 125F/51C.

That's interesting. My machine runs with the chocolate temperature at 47C initially (1-2kg batch) and comes down to 43C when everything is more refined - which is about 12 hours in. This is with a room temperature of approximately 25C. Your batch size maybe looks a little larger, but that's still a large difference.

We've never had a machine running with the chocolate temperature over 50C (either Santha or Premier).

All I can think of is trying to lube the inside of the wheels/shaft with some ccb as mentioned above.

Something to note though, I've tested and shown that just the act of refining (no added heat in a room temp of 72F) gets the chocolate up to 146F.  Which is around 63C. The pic below was after about 12 hours of refining, I almost burned my hand checking the side for heat. So out of curiosity I took a temp.

 friction_heat.jpg - 77KB

 Well I'm out of ideas, if the bushings are fine and secure.   Anyone else solve this mechanical mystery?

And yes, the expoxies are the only things that have an issue with the heat. Based on what I've been able to find ; which I'll admit is not much so it is an educated guess, is that 180F is the material test rating. 170 is close, but not over what the material should be capable of handling. HDPE (the plastics) are dishwasher safe, meaning they'll withstand the over 200F of a dishwasher drying cycle. And stone...well, stone shouldnt have the issue.

Testing with a surface IR thermometer, the stone never reaches that temp in the time I have it in the oven. It just happens to be the lowest my oven will go.  After 2 hours, the stones read 150F/65C. And yes, I'm cautious as I'm aware of the potential issues there. The epoxy doesnt loosen or budge. It's just as hard and rigid after heating as it is when it's room temp. So I dont fear that to be an issue.

Yep, I've been told that 60C (maybe 65C by some people) is the upper end of what the epoxies can handle. Personally, when running a "heated" grind, I never take it over 57C.

I have previously run at 60C a couple of times and had the central shaft in the bowl start turning while still "glued" in place.

In terms of machine relaibility, I've used up to 5 Santhas and 4 Premiers in different settings. You may be surprised how UNstandardised these models are. It seems like each time they do a production run, the manufacturers change some aspect of the machine. In my own experience, the Premier Wonder grinders have been better than the Santhas, but both have had issues. I think its really idiosyncratic to themachine you get - some are better than others and it almost seems to be manufacturer independent.

Yes, the wheels will move slightly from side to side down the axle shaft when clean. They spin freely, and no vertical(up and down) movement when the wheels are in place. Both assemblies are like this. 

Hi Tim,

I don't understand why you are having problems, you do pretty much what we do with our Wonder grinders in terms of use and cleaning.  I've also found as you mention that the Premier grinders reduce the particle size faster than other brands too.

I guess I should have written 'test tube' brush not bottle brush....  they are quite a bit smaller.  We use an item with about 1" diameter soft bristles but do have to snip the end to get it to go through the bore hole of the wheels.   Again, do you wheels have 'end float' or side to side movement on the shaft with the nuts tightened? Assume the wheels spin freely when clean?

Here's the pics of the seized assembly at each step of cleaning.

 seized_001.jpg - 69KB

To reiterate: when I got the machines in October. I unpackaged them, ran them under hot water and mild soap and used a scrubbing brush. That was to get rid of any plastics and oils prior to first run.   The first run; again as a cleaning procedure; was to pour hot water and mild degreasing soap into the maching and let it run.  The axles were covered during this time. After running through like that, I took the assembly apart, scrubbed the wheels the best I could, wiped down the axles as best I could and used forced spray of water to clean out the inside of the wheels.  

This area here is too small for any brush I have (bottle brush will not fit).  I have since used my dip tube brush from my keg gear.  It's a tiny brush that requires some force to push through the wheel, bristles are bigger than the hole, so they are indeed scrubbing.

I was able to run a batch of 2 ingredient chocolate through at 72% dark. For prep for this I heat my oven to the lowest setting which is 170F/76.6C and set the assembly and drum separately on sheet pans lined with parchment paper. The assembly sits in the oven for about 1-2 hours, then gets placed on the base. I pour the liquid ingredients in first; i.e. cocoa butter if I'm adding any. If no cb, I begin by adding freshly roasted/winnowed nibs about a handful at a time (maybe .5oz) and let it get somewhat liquid first before moving forward.   It takes about 2 hours to add all nibs in. At that point I let it refine for a minimum of 12 hours before adding any other ingredients (milk, sugar, vanilla, etc). There was no visible or noticable issue with that batch. Other than the premier refined a lot faster than I'm used to (ready in 36 hours).

To clean after a batch of chocolate has been run through, I pull out the degreaser and hot water to remove any chocolate that I couldnt scrape out. I let this soak for a few minutes prior to attacking it with a scrubbing brush. I then use the spray hose to rinse out the bowl and remove any visible chocolate on the wheel assembly. I then take wheels off, and scrub the inside of the wheels and wipe down the axles.  I then wait for it to be mostly dry, then I set the disassembled wheel assembly onto a parchment lined sheet pan into the oven.  This assists in getting the pieces drying.

If I'm going to run another batch that day, I will leave the pieces in the oven for about 2-3 hours to both dry and warm the pieces.  When I assemble, I make sure to tighten the nuts as tight as they were prior to me disassembling. As of thus far, I've been treating the new premiere grinders the same as I have treated my santha grinder.  The santha grinder is still running, zero issues, and have never had a problem with it. In fact I've just replaced a belt on it, first time in almost 8 years that was done.  So I'm going to assume maintenance, cleaning, sanitation is going to be the same?

Hey,

Peter, could you elaborate on the possible solutions youre proposing? I am unfamiliar with those terms and how to proceed.

As for the second option, just move the grindeur further from the control panel?

[quote="Tony.n"] I've seen this issue before, is definetly a cleaning issue, Do you spin the granite stone rollers while rinsing with hot water?

Can you describe how do you clean your melangeur? 

Tim,

As Tony writes cleaning is key,  for both cleaning and sanitation it's actually a good idea to remove the wheels from the shafts (just need a M10 wrench or spanner).    Clean the bore of the stones with a small 'bottle brush', (Erin could sell them? but easy to find on eBay etc.)   After cleaning we place the stones and drum in a low convection oven set to 100C,  if you are lucky enough to have an oven that can be set this low it's a good way to drive off water and pre-heat before chocolate making.

Hope you have better luck with your next batches

@clay or anyone else with a Rumbo... I'm very interested in the Rumbo. Your description above helps but I'm curious if the drain valve is flush with the inside bottom of the melanger or if there a lip? If I could find a picture of the inside of the Rumbo that would help a lot! Depending on what flavors or even milk chocolate we make we'll need to clean it thoroughly. Thanks!

I've seen this issue before, is definetly a cleaning issue, Do you spin the granite stone rollers while rinsing with hot water?

Can you describe how do you clean your melangeur? 

Can you send a quick video? 

This is a common situation with a VFD, the motor amplifies the carrier frequency and voila you have noise. Simplest possible solutions include changing the carrier frequency ( usually set in parameters for your drive, just raise it slightly, or sometimes it is possible to minimize the noise by increasing/decreasing the distance from VFD to motor. Best thing to do would be to talk to your electrician about this as there are many variables, you could need a combination of them to reduce the noise. First thing- self adjust the carrier frequency slightly higher to see if it helps (in your drive manual). Note: the noise never goes away it just gets adjusted beyond your hearing limits ( your dog will still complain). Or you could just get a pair of earmuffs (which was our solution, I wasn't about to spend the time to figure it out)

Gustaf Mabrouk: Clay,

I can see the "trouble" with showcasing this at this stage. Where is this seminar being held? I want to attend as well

Here is the link to the event listing here on TheChocolateLife. If you scroll down towards the bottom of the page you'll see the link to the site for more information and registration.

Norbert:

Georg clearly states in his book that he will not likely publish an update to it, something he also told me in person when we met in Amsterdam at the Origin Chocolate event. Therefore I saw no point in contacting Georg privately by email.

Besides, you have to wait until p855 in the Acknowledgements section to learn that he wants readers to contact him, and the email address. I did not discover that bit of info until today.

Also, I felt that the flaws I saw in the book needed to be made public so that people could approach it critically, knowing that there were many factual errors. If I contacted Georg privately I had no way of knowing if my concerns would be made public - and based on his response to the first part of my review, I am fairly confident they would never have seen the light of day.

Another reason to go public is that because Georg is now making chocolate under his own brand he cannot, in good faith and conscience, even think about working on an update to the book as it represents a direct conflict of interest.

I am glad you find the book very useful, even with the flaws I point out. I know that others find it useful, too. I also know from speaking with native-German speakers that many of the flaws I found in the book are in the German-language version and that there is controversy in Germany over the book - not everyone feels as you do about it.

Most of the people I have spoken with who feel the way you do have not closely read any part of it, including the reviews. But, if they read the front matter and the back matter closely they would treat the reviews differently. I am not so concerned about the reviews, except where Georg is not consistent with his own stated editorial policies.

As for Hoja Verde ... I have been in touch with Jose and Eduardo in Ecuador by email and saw Jolanda in Amsterdam -- were you there? I was told you would be. If so, we did not connect and I am sad we did not get the chance to talk about this in person. I don't need to consider what brands are and are not known in Europe, I am concerned with how brands are represented (and not) in the book. 

And - you are wrong when you say that only Criollo and Nacional survive as 'true genetic types'. All true Criollos have a genome with 420,000,000 base pairs. All Forasteros have a genome with 440,000,000 base pairs. All Nacionals are gentically Foresteros. Really. That's what the DNA says.

[Feb 11 - edited for typos and clarity]

Clay, why do you not e-mail your comments to Georg? And make an even better book. Together. And, if possible, with the one or two other experts. That would be a great contribution to the chocolate loving society.
What Georg did was a great and unique job not many people dare to do. Or would not even think of it. Okay, you aknowledge that.
I find the book very usefull. Even with the flaws you mention.
Wouldn't it be great if this Reference Standard - yes, The Reference Standard, because there is no other - would be the basis, the foundation, of something even better. With your help? But when I read your comments I think: Why this way? Think of the bigger picture!

PS The Ecuadorian brand Hoja Verde might not be known in the US, in the EU it is fairly wel known brand. We, ClearChox, distribute it in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, The Netherlands, Belgium and Luxemburg (of course). And it is distributed in Australia.... Please consider that the other way around, many US brands are unknown overhere.

PS As long as the entire chocolate world talks about Criollo, Trinitario, Nacional and Forestero, I do not see a problem to bother the average reader with genetics - which is never ending. But then, only the criollo and nacional 'survive' as true genetic types + many new ones. And in Ecuador arriba is considerded the nacional grown in the areas of the river basin of the Guayas.

Clay,

I can see the "trouble" with showcasing this at this stage. Where is this seminar being held? I want to attend as well

Gustaf -

I don't know how to talk about the varieties yet. The industry has spent so much money on Criollo/Trinitario/Forastero/Nacional that it would take a lot to introduce new thinking to the general public. But I think that people in the industry need to know about them and work with a more nuanced understanding. 

From my last conversation with Ed Seguine on this topic, basically everything is either a Criollo (420,000,000 base pairs in the genome) or a Forastero (440,000,000 base pairs in the genome). So with the exception of the Criollos, everything in Motamayor's list falls into the Forastero camp. Everything. Nacionals are Forasteros. Trinitarios are Forasteros, even though they contain some Criollo ancestry.

What Ed thinks is that this is a matter of what's in accessions and what was tested. If there were more testing done on the Criollos we'd see similar differentiation there.

There's a cacao research conference at the end of May/early June that I want to attend and I think that that might be a place to start asking some of these questions.

Hi Tim,

Seems the problem is that the machines weren't initially cleaned before being used.  

Before using the machine for the first time, it is important to clean out the machine to make certain it is free of excess stone, dust and packaging material.  There are instructions for cleaning the machine that come with the machine.  You should initially rinse the bowl and stone holder with wheels well in very warm water until the water runs clear.  Let the bowl and stones dry completely (allowing over night and/or 24 hours to dry, depending on dryness of surrounding air, is a good idea to ensure no moisture remains that could cause cocoa butter to seize).  After the bowl and stones are completely dry, warm cocoa butter to a liquid state.   Turn on the machine and slowly pour in the cocoa butter.  Let the stones get covered in the warm cocoa butter for about a minute or two.    Turn off the machine, empty any excess cocoa butter.  Now you are ready to begin making chocolate. This warm cocoa butter is a great lubricant and also begins the process of warming up the stones.  Using a hair dryer on the stones and/or placing the bowl and stones in a warm (not hot) oven can also help with refinement and keeping the cocoa butter warm initially.

Making certain that all parts are completely dry is important when working with cocoa butter, due to it's propensity to seize when moisture is present.  There was probably some remaining moisture that made it difficult for the wheels to move.  

Make certain the wheels are well situated on the shaft to allow movement. When moving the stone holder down the shaft, you will notice that when the stone holder is correctly positioned down the shaft that the wheels will move when stone holder is rotated around the shaft.  Once you have the stone holder correctly in position, you will be ready to use the top lock to hold it in position.  The top lock places downward pressure on the stones and helps with refinement.  You can reduce the pressure in the begining when you are adding nibs to adjust for the big partical size and slowly add more pressure when the particle size is more similar and smaller.  The top lock should never be more than finger tight.

For your first few batches, start with smaller batches that come half-way up the wheel.  This will allow you to see the stones moving and give you time to learn the cadence for adding ingredients.  Once you've got the hang of it, you'll be good to start making larger batches.

There are Chocolate Maker Upgrades available for the Premier Wonder Grinder that include more robust gears for the longer run times required for making chocolate, long wearing Polyurethane belt and fully sealed ball bearings (much better for working with cocoa butter).  There are also machines upgraded specifically for the rigors of making chocolate called the Chocolate Refiner ( http://indichocolate.com/products/chocolate-refiner?variant=7781420993).

Work is being done on the website to include instructional and troubleshooting videos for the Wonder Grinder, Chocolate Refiner and Tilting Grinder that should be posted soon.  

You can contact me directly from the contact information on the website if you have additional questions, etc.  

Hope this is helpful.

Happy chocolate making!

Erin

I have the following items for sale.  I can sell them individually or as a package.  Please send me a note with your interest and offering price and I will calculate shippings costs.  I have a very good Fedex co-op discount so shipping to a Fedex office location for pickup or to a commercial address is often less expensive than USPS.  The candy box components all fit each other as  indicated (square candy box vs small square candy box) Counts are accurate to 5+/-.  Additional information available upon request.  The Cambro items are used but in like new condition.  The wine coolers are used but in excellent condition - used for storage at offsite events.  Shipping is from Cedar Park, TX and local pickup is also available.

1. White tasting spoons  3 1/4"  5400 ct
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3. White base for square candy box  5 9/16 x 5 9/16 x 2 1/8" two layer  222 ct
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5. Brown window top for square candy box 5 3/4 x 5 3/4 x 1 1/8" 200 ct
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8. White base for small square box  3 1/2 x 3 1/2 x 1 1/8"  175 ct
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10. Brown tray for small square box 4 cavities 1 1/4 x 1 1/4"  405 ct
11. Gold elastic loop 10" - untied 18"  696 ct
12. Cambro 12x20" Dome Cover clear  3 ct
13. Cambro 12x20" Bliack Tray  4 ct  
14. Thermal Bubble mailer 10 x 10 1/2" with peel off sealer  168 ct
15. Danby 35 bottle Freestanding Wine Cooler  1 ct
16. Magic Chef 12 bottle Wine Cooler  1 ct 

@deborah2 whoa! A $100 sous-vide controller, that's fantastic

@volnoir I use it right away, otherwise it creates lumps. The chocolate is brought to working temperature before adding the butter, so the crystals don't melt. It seems anywhere around 31-32C is fine.

The noise originates from the motor area. I've done a belt change, oil check, and greased any parts that seem relevant. The noise does not happen when you simply spin the drum. 

Logan