Forum Activity for @Gap

That's interesting. My machine runs with the chocolate temperature at 47C initially (1-2kg batch) and comes down to 43C when everything is more refined - which is about 12 hours in. This is with a room temperature of approximately 25C. Your batch size maybe looks a little larger, but that's still a large difference.

We've never had a machine running with the chocolate temperature over 50C (either Santha or Premier).

All I can think of is trying to lube the inside of the wheels/shaft with some ccb as mentioned above.

Something to note though, I've tested and shown that just the act of refining (no added heat in a room temp of 72F) gets the chocolate up to 146F.  Which is around 63C. The pic below was after about 12 hours of refining, I almost burned my hand checking the side for heat. So out of curiosity I took a temp.

 friction_heat.jpg - 77KB

 Well I'm out of ideas, if the bushings are fine and secure.   Anyone else solve this mechanical mystery?

And yes, the expoxies are the only things that have an issue with the heat. Based on what I've been able to find ; which I'll admit is not much so it is an educated guess, is that 180F is the material test rating. 170 is close, but not over what the material should be capable of handling. HDPE (the plastics) are dishwasher safe, meaning they'll withstand the over 200F of a dishwasher drying cycle. And stone...well, stone shouldnt have the issue.

Testing with a surface IR thermometer, the stone never reaches that temp in the time I have it in the oven. It just happens to be the lowest my oven will go.  After 2 hours, the stones read 150F/65C. And yes, I'm cautious as I'm aware of the potential issues there. The epoxy doesnt loosen or budge. It's just as hard and rigid after heating as it is when it's room temp. So I dont fear that to be an issue.

Yep, I've been told that 60C (maybe 65C by some people) is the upper end of what the epoxies can handle. Personally, when running a "heated" grind, I never take it over 57C.

I have previously run at 60C a couple of times and had the central shaft in the bowl start turning while still "glued" in place.

In terms of machine relaibility, I've used up to 5 Santhas and 4 Premiers in different settings. You may be surprised how UNstandardised these models are. It seems like each time they do a production run, the manufacturers change some aspect of the machine. In my own experience, the Premier Wonder grinders have been better than the Santhas, but both have had issues. I think its really idiosyncratic to themachine you get - some are better than others and it almost seems to be manufacturer independent.

Yes, the wheels will move slightly from side to side down the axle shaft when clean. They spin freely, and no vertical(up and down) movement when the wheels are in place. Both assemblies are like this. 

Hi Tim,

I don't understand why you are having problems, you do pretty much what we do with our Wonder grinders in terms of use and cleaning.  I've also found as you mention that the Premier grinders reduce the particle size faster than other brands too.

I guess I should have written 'test tube' brush not bottle brush....  they are quite a bit smaller.  We use an item with about 1" diameter soft bristles but do have to snip the end to get it to go through the bore hole of the wheels.   Again, do you wheels have 'end float' or side to side movement on the shaft with the nuts tightened? Assume the wheels spin freely when clean?

Here's the pics of the seized assembly at each step of cleaning.

 seized_001.jpg - 69KB

To reiterate: when I got the machines in October. I unpackaged them, ran them under hot water and mild soap and used a scrubbing brush. That was to get rid of any plastics and oils prior to first run.   The first run; again as a cleaning procedure; was to pour hot water and mild degreasing soap into the maching and let it run.  The axles were covered during this time. After running through like that, I took the assembly apart, scrubbed the wheels the best I could, wiped down the axles as best I could and used forced spray of water to clean out the inside of the wheels.  

This area here is too small for any brush I have (bottle brush will not fit).  I have since used my dip tube brush from my keg gear.  It's a tiny brush that requires some force to push through the wheel, bristles are bigger than the hole, so they are indeed scrubbing.

I was able to run a batch of 2 ingredient chocolate through at 72% dark. For prep for this I heat my oven to the lowest setting which is 170F/76.6C and set the assembly and drum separately on sheet pans lined with parchment paper. The assembly sits in the oven for about 1-2 hours, then gets placed on the base. I pour the liquid ingredients in first; i.e. cocoa butter if I'm adding any. If no cb, I begin by adding freshly roasted/winnowed nibs about a handful at a time (maybe .5oz) and let it get somewhat liquid first before moving forward.   It takes about 2 hours to add all nibs in. At that point I let it refine for a minimum of 12 hours before adding any other ingredients (milk, sugar, vanilla, etc). There was no visible or noticable issue with that batch. Other than the premier refined a lot faster than I'm used to (ready in 36 hours).

To clean after a batch of chocolate has been run through, I pull out the degreaser and hot water to remove any chocolate that I couldnt scrape out. I let this soak for a few minutes prior to attacking it with a scrubbing brush. I then use the spray hose to rinse out the bowl and remove any visible chocolate on the wheel assembly. I then take wheels off, and scrub the inside of the wheels and wipe down the axles.  I then wait for it to be mostly dry, then I set the disassembled wheel assembly onto a parchment lined sheet pan into the oven.  This assists in getting the pieces drying.

If I'm going to run another batch that day, I will leave the pieces in the oven for about 2-3 hours to both dry and warm the pieces.  When I assemble, I make sure to tighten the nuts as tight as they were prior to me disassembling. As of thus far, I've been treating the new premiere grinders the same as I have treated my santha grinder.  The santha grinder is still running, zero issues, and have never had a problem with it. In fact I've just replaced a belt on it, first time in almost 8 years that was done.  So I'm going to assume maintenance, cleaning, sanitation is going to be the same?

Hey,

Peter, could you elaborate on the possible solutions youre proposing? I am unfamiliar with those terms and how to proceed.

As for the second option, just move the grindeur further from the control panel?

[quote="Tony.n"] I've seen this issue before, is definetly a cleaning issue, Do you spin the granite stone rollers while rinsing with hot water?

Can you describe how do you clean your melangeur? 

Tim,

As Tony writes cleaning is key,  for both cleaning and sanitation it's actually a good idea to remove the wheels from the shafts (just need a M10 wrench or spanner).    Clean the bore of the stones with a small 'bottle brush', (Erin could sell them? but easy to find on eBay etc.)   After cleaning we place the stones and drum in a low convection oven set to 100C,  if you are lucky enough to have an oven that can be set this low it's a good way to drive off water and pre-heat before chocolate making.

Hope you have better luck with your next batches

@clay or anyone else with a Rumbo... I'm very interested in the Rumbo. Your description above helps but I'm curious if the drain valve is flush with the inside bottom of the melanger or if there a lip? If I could find a picture of the inside of the Rumbo that would help a lot! Depending on what flavors or even milk chocolate we make we'll need to clean it thoroughly. Thanks!

I've seen this issue before, is definetly a cleaning issue, Do you spin the granite stone rollers while rinsing with hot water?

Can you describe how do you clean your melangeur? 

Can you send a quick video? 

This is a common situation with a VFD, the motor amplifies the carrier frequency and voila you have noise. Simplest possible solutions include changing the carrier frequency ( usually set in parameters for your drive, just raise it slightly, or sometimes it is possible to minimize the noise by increasing/decreasing the distance from VFD to motor. Best thing to do would be to talk to your electrician about this as there are many variables, you could need a combination of them to reduce the noise. First thing- self adjust the carrier frequency slightly higher to see if it helps (in your drive manual). Note: the noise never goes away it just gets adjusted beyond your hearing limits ( your dog will still complain). Or you could just get a pair of earmuffs (which was our solution, I wasn't about to spend the time to figure it out)

Gustaf Mabrouk: Clay,

I can see the "trouble" with showcasing this at this stage. Where is this seminar being held? I want to attend as well

Here is the link to the event listing here on TheChocolateLife. If you scroll down towards the bottom of the page you'll see the link to the site for more information and registration.

Norbert:

Georg clearly states in his book that he will not likely publish an update to it, something he also told me in person when we met in Amsterdam at the Origin Chocolate event. Therefore I saw no point in contacting Georg privately by email.

Besides, you have to wait until p855 in the Acknowledgements section to learn that he wants readers to contact him, and the email address. I did not discover that bit of info until today.

Also, I felt that the flaws I saw in the book needed to be made public so that people could approach it critically, knowing that there were many factual errors. If I contacted Georg privately I had no way of knowing if my concerns would be made public - and based on his response to the first part of my review, I am fairly confident they would never have seen the light of day.

Another reason to go public is that because Georg is now making chocolate under his own brand he cannot, in good faith and conscience, even think about working on an update to the book as it represents a direct conflict of interest.

I am glad you find the book very useful, even with the flaws I point out. I know that others find it useful, too. I also know from speaking with native-German speakers that many of the flaws I found in the book are in the German-language version and that there is controversy in Germany over the book - not everyone feels as you do about it.

Most of the people I have spoken with who feel the way you do have not closely read any part of it, including the reviews. But, if they read the front matter and the back matter closely they would treat the reviews differently. I am not so concerned about the reviews, except where Georg is not consistent with his own stated editorial policies.

As for Hoja Verde ... I have been in touch with Jose and Eduardo in Ecuador by email and saw Jolanda in Amsterdam -- were you there? I was told you would be. If so, we did not connect and I am sad we did not get the chance to talk about this in person. I don't need to consider what brands are and are not known in Europe, I am concerned with how brands are represented (and not) in the book. 

And - you are wrong when you say that only Criollo and Nacional survive as 'true genetic types'. All true Criollos have a genome with 420,000,000 base pairs. All Forasteros have a genome with 440,000,000 base pairs. All Nacionals are gentically Foresteros. Really. That's what the DNA says.

[Feb 11 - edited for typos and clarity]

Clay, why do you not e-mail your comments to Georg? And make an even better book. Together. And, if possible, with the one or two other experts. That would be a great contribution to the chocolate loving society.
What Georg did was a great and unique job not many people dare to do. Or would not even think of it. Okay, you aknowledge that.
I find the book very usefull. Even with the flaws you mention.
Wouldn't it be great if this Reference Standard - yes, The Reference Standard, because there is no other - would be the basis, the foundation, of something even better. With your help? But when I read your comments I think: Why this way? Think of the bigger picture!

PS The Ecuadorian brand Hoja Verde might not be known in the US, in the EU it is fairly wel known brand. We, ClearChox, distribute it in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, The Netherlands, Belgium and Luxemburg (of course). And it is distributed in Australia.... Please consider that the other way around, many US brands are unknown overhere.

PS As long as the entire chocolate world talks about Criollo, Trinitario, Nacional and Forestero, I do not see a problem to bother the average reader with genetics - which is never ending. But then, only the criollo and nacional 'survive' as true genetic types + many new ones. And in Ecuador arriba is considerded the nacional grown in the areas of the river basin of the Guayas.

Clay,

I can see the "trouble" with showcasing this at this stage. Where is this seminar being held? I want to attend as well

Gustaf -

I don't know how to talk about the varieties yet. The industry has spent so much money on Criollo/Trinitario/Forastero/Nacional that it would take a lot to introduce new thinking to the general public. But I think that people in the industry need to know about them and work with a more nuanced understanding. 

From my last conversation with Ed Seguine on this topic, basically everything is either a Criollo (420,000,000 base pairs in the genome) or a Forastero (440,000,000 base pairs in the genome). So with the exception of the Criollos, everything in Motamayor's list falls into the Forastero camp. Everything. Nacionals are Forasteros. Trinitarios are Forasteros, even though they contain some Criollo ancestry.

What Ed thinks is that this is a matter of what's in accessions and what was tested. If there were more testing done on the Criollos we'd see similar differentiation there.

There's a cacao research conference at the end of May/early June that I want to attend and I think that that might be a place to start asking some of these questions.

Hi Tim,

Seems the problem is that the machines weren't initially cleaned before being used.  

Before using the machine for the first time, it is important to clean out the machine to make certain it is free of excess stone, dust and packaging material.  There are instructions for cleaning the machine that come with the machine.  You should initially rinse the bowl and stone holder with wheels well in very warm water until the water runs clear.  Let the bowl and stones dry completely (allowing over night and/or 24 hours to dry, depending on dryness of surrounding air, is a good idea to ensure no moisture remains that could cause cocoa butter to seize).  After the bowl and stones are completely dry, warm cocoa butter to a liquid state.   Turn on the machine and slowly pour in the cocoa butter.  Let the stones get covered in the warm cocoa butter for about a minute or two.    Turn off the machine, empty any excess cocoa butter.  Now you are ready to begin making chocolate. This warm cocoa butter is a great lubricant and also begins the process of warming up the stones.  Using a hair dryer on the stones and/or placing the bowl and stones in a warm (not hot) oven can also help with refinement and keeping the cocoa butter warm initially.

Making certain that all parts are completely dry is important when working with cocoa butter, due to it's propensity to seize when moisture is present.  There was probably some remaining moisture that made it difficult for the wheels to move.  

Make certain the wheels are well situated on the shaft to allow movement. When moving the stone holder down the shaft, you will notice that when the stone holder is correctly positioned down the shaft that the wheels will move when stone holder is rotated around the shaft.  Once you have the stone holder correctly in position, you will be ready to use the top lock to hold it in position.  The top lock places downward pressure on the stones and helps with refinement.  You can reduce the pressure in the begining when you are adding nibs to adjust for the big partical size and slowly add more pressure when the particle size is more similar and smaller.  The top lock should never be more than finger tight.

For your first few batches, start with smaller batches that come half-way up the wheel.  This will allow you to see the stones moving and give you time to learn the cadence for adding ingredients.  Once you've got the hang of it, you'll be good to start making larger batches.

There are Chocolate Maker Upgrades available for the Premier Wonder Grinder that include more robust gears for the longer run times required for making chocolate, long wearing Polyurethane belt and fully sealed ball bearings (much better for working with cocoa butter).  There are also machines upgraded specifically for the rigors of making chocolate called the Chocolate Refiner ( http://indichocolate.com/products/chocolate-refiner?variant=7781420993).

Work is being done on the website to include instructional and troubleshooting videos for the Wonder Grinder, Chocolate Refiner and Tilting Grinder that should be posted soon.  

You can contact me directly from the contact information on the website if you have additional questions, etc.  

Hope this is helpful.

Happy chocolate making!

Erin

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@deborah2 whoa! A $100 sous-vide controller, that's fantastic

@volnoir I use it right away, otherwise it creates lumps. The chocolate is brought to working temperature before adding the butter, so the crystals don't melt. It seems anywhere around 31-32C is fine.

The noise originates from the motor area. I've done a belt change, oil check, and greased any parts that seem relevant. The noise does not happen when you simply spin the drum. 

Logan

What is making the whine? The motor or the phase converter?

Hey,

Have a used ECGC 65A Ive recently hooked up with single to 3 phase control box. It makes a high pitched whine when the motor is turned on, and the pitch changes with the frequency control knob. It is very annoying. I am in contact with an electrician and Cocoatown, but was wondering if anyone had any advice or experience with fixing this. Thanks.

Rice cooker (analog, because the power goes out here in Panama every once in awhile) connected to a Dorkfood sous vide temperature controller set at 93F.  Cocoa butter in small glass jars in baggies.  Probe from the controller into the rice cooker, held down with the lid.  Water in rice cooker up the side of the jars about half way. Total equipment cost about $125.  I've been using this for several months now and it works like a charm.  Perfectly tempered chocolate in minutes.  The water really isn't an issue, but I'm careful to pat the jar dry when I pull it out of the baggie and before I unscrew the top.

Interesting. Did you use the seed straight out of the water bath, or did you let it cool/harden and then shave it into your chocolate?

Hi Tim,

Do check the 'end float' on the stone wheels, ideally with the washer and M6 nut snugged up the wheels should spin freely but the wheels shouldn't be able to move up and down the shaft much at at all.  These things are a very cheap device,  unfortunately the manufacturing tolerances seem to be a bit hit and miss.   The HDPE bushings are a two piece effort with a piece inserted and glued from each side, there shouldn't be a big gap between the two parts of the bushing inside the stone? 

I've also noticed that on some stones on the ones we have that the bushing is quite a loose fit on the shaft, if there is a bit more end float 'stuff' including dust can get in between the bushing and shaft.  I haven't had the issue you seem to have (yet),  if I needed to correct the end-float I'd probably try re-cutting the thread on the shaft with a M6 die so I could tighten more, I imagine using a thicker washer could also work?   Alternatively, replacing the center assembly might help.  Hopefully, there's not stone /grit worked into the revolving stones bushings, if present it will grind on the shaft as shown by 'witness marks; on the stainless shaft.    Again, these grinders aren't build for HD chocolate making, you can get away with using them, but there apparently are one or two design weakness.

Mark

Ok, because of the 2am cleanup finishing around 3am, a little slow at getting the pics up.  However, the lube appears to be cb with granite dust. In one of my last batches of 2-ingredient dark chocolate I found a big glob of it with the last 8-10oz of chocolate. I've poured that in a container un-tempered to solidify before throwing out. Looking at it now, it's cb. It has the same temper/texture/solidity that the cb immediately around it has, only it's pitch black with some sort of metalic sparkle to it (hence when seeing it in liquid form looked like a separate lube).

I've done the dry sugar thing on my Santha, but that was several years ago. I was told in some posting or another in the years since that it's not a suggested practice since it's a wet grinder and can damage the machine by running dry foods through it.  I take it that's gone back to standard practice again?

What I have done to clean, other than running 4 batches of chocolate through one machine and 2 batches through the other, is I've poured hot water and a degreasing soap into the machine and let it run for a few minutes. Took it apart and washed/scrubbed thoroughly as a first cleaning procedure. 

As a secondary suggested procedure to knock and collect dust, I did run an oil/sugar mix through the machines for about 2 hours. It discolored the oil but I've since cleaned that out. 

I'm thinking at the moment, the biggest worry is the seizing wheels. I'm not sure what could be causing that, and I'll have to take the wheels out into daylight to see if there's scratching or marring on the white bushings that I cant see in the indoor lighting for some reason. It's worrisome because it's happening on 2 assemblies, not just one machine. 

Since I have one machine open with a newly cleaned and dried wheel assembly, I've run the dry sugar through for about 45 minutes. That did not discolor the sugar, and I'm in process of cleaning that out and getting it dried again. The other machine I'll have pics posted of the chocolate free siezed wheels and they're disassembly up as soon as is possible.

I use these for prototype batches, looks like you have stone dust and or food grease with gray metal wear particles dissolved in a sea of CB?

Did you 'run-in' the grinders with a 1lb of sugar before use?  You do need to bed in the stones before making product. A 30 minute run with sugar helps settle the stones against the base stone, then discard and wash up.  That said, before you use the grinder for the first time undo the nuts holding the wheels on and clean and grease the spindles with some FDA legal food grade grease (Lubriplate FGL-2) it will stop the sugar getting into the stone's bushings.  Personally, I've found the stainless steel shafts the wheels revolve on to be a bit soft and the shaft will wear / gall if any grit gets between the bush and shaft.   The stone dust (granite) and even some unrefined sugars are effectively a form of grinding medium.   Once you have bedded the stones, discarded the sugar and wash and dry the set up,  you can wipe off the shafts to remove the food grease, it's a DELRIN (as Erin pointed out) bushing really should be self lubricating.

Also, when making chocolate with a Premier I never add sugar before having nicely liquid cocoa and or cocoa butter circulating to prevent any particles getting into the shafts.   I will also sometimes 'grease' the spindles with CB after I clean my grinders and reassemble for the next batch.   The premier grinders are a great small batch option but the spindles and bushings are the one thing that is less than ideal from a santitation point too.

Is anyone else making heavy use of PID controllers?

I have an anova sous-vide controller generating cocoa butter seed; on the included picture it's set at 92.5F.

A ziploc bag at 34C for 12 hours then at 33.5C, up to 100g of cocoa butter seems to work well; I dry the bag and cut a tiny bit of a corner to use the seed, which takes care of any remaining lumps. It's also worked with a glass jar inside a ziploc bag. The same setup was also used at higher temperatures to infuse cocoa butter with spices.

On the second attached picture is another PID controller, this time a Sous-Vide Magic 1500. I used plexiglass, duct tape, a heater, fan and hacked chafing dish to assemble this heater. This probably doesn't make economic sense if you have to buy all those things - I had an old spare PID controller hanging around and wanted a proof of concept. I learned that ceramic heaters are a really bad choice and will use a hair dryer next

Next I'm getting quotes to build the box in stainless steel and cut the chafing dish holder that would sit on top, so I can use regular restaurant-sized chafing dishes.

In another chocolate workshop I saw a micro-controller running a PID algorithm, controlling an old freezer to keep it at a higher temperature than the one it was designed for. Arduino, Raspberry Pi and others would be good choices - and given time I would get some together to have a seed generator that isn't water based and maybe hack a freezer to be a cooling tunnel.

For the moment my bottleneck is molding bars and packaging them fast enough to be able to get to break-even, so those projects have to wait. I hope this gives people ideas and this thread encourages people to share.

 IMG_5987.JPG.jpg - 372KB

Other stuff meaning: a heated container and a vibrating machine. Yesterday I realized putting chocolate in moulds isn't the actual bottleneck just yet. I spend a good chunk of time manually removing bubbles and feel the need to work faster because chocolate is starting to crystallize.

As soon as I build the other stuff, I intend to get the  PM600 .

This past season I chose to expand the new small business production and got 2 premier wonder grinders. And I'm having problems with both.

When I went to make some white chocolate, it came out a very sickly grey. No off flavors, but just sickly grey. After the first batch like that, I pulled the hub assembly out and saw there is a lot of black lube in the wheel; more specifically it seemed to have hidden/stored in the gap between the two-piece axle shaft assmbly that is epoxied to the wheels.

After trying to clean that out the best I could, I got a less grey, but still sickly looking white chocolate. After cleaning hard again - difficult because of the small opening I had to work with. and yet again another batch (third one) that is unusable because of it's sickly color.

Thus far, it looks and tastes like it's a food-grade lubricant of some sort, which I dont mind, just want it gone so it doesnt discolor my chocolate. I eventually went through both with a dip tube brush from my beer keg cleaning gear, which was the only small scrub brush that I have that would fit in there.

I *think* I've gotten it all out, but now I'm having issues with both assemblies with the wheels seizing.  They "float" across the bottom, but do not spin. When I first saw this, I pulled the assembly and took it apart. There appeared to be plastic or string kinda twined in there. Pulled that out and inspected the wheels but I'm not seeing any damage at all.  I put the other assembly in (2nd machine not in use) to finish the batch, and this one also seized up.

Anyone else having these issues?  I've attatched the grey vs fresh add to the grinder for color comparisons.  This is getting a little frustrating at this point.

I'm currently in the process of emptying the grinder that currently has the siezed wheels. As they get cleaned I'll post pics.  I'm really hoping this isnt due to something stupid on my part. I've been careful to disassemble and reassemble exactly as they were.  Seemed to be working fine with the lube in there other than tainting the chocolate. But now that it's cleaned, not seeming to work right.

 grey.jpg - 45KB

Sounds like a fun project!!!!  Let us know what system you come up with...

It looks custom. Most packaging is. Depending on how it's closed, it could be an affordable alternative to a traditional box. Do you have a sample box?

I'm looking for a package with similar form factor to the newest one from Manoa. Do you know who makes it?

Hi Sebastian,

I'm interested into hearing more about the job offer at hand. Shoot me an email...gustaf@chefdepartienyc.com

Sincerely

Gustaf

Which one did you go with? Can you provide a link?