Forum Activity for @nancysweet

Do not rely on Eataly! I have been disappointed in the selection everywhere I've been - Milan and Turin (two locations).

In Turin if you don't know Gerla - home to some of the only hand-cut gianduia you can buy - go. It's a short walk from Porta Nuova. Pepino is highly thought of for Gelato, and I visited Miretti and I can personally vouch for the gelato there. For lunch, try il Vicolo - the risotto selection is astounding.

In Rome - well that's covered in the post you cited.

IF you can find some GARDINI gianduja with cherries I will gladly pay you for a bar and to ship it to me when you get back.

Bonus Question: I'm assuming I can pick up some of my favorites that I won't be able to visit (ie, Domori and Amedei) at EATALY, but if this is not true, or there is a better chocolate store that carries stock from multiple makers, please guide me towards the light! Thanks, again!

Hello, 'Lifers! While making final preparations for my upcoming trip to Italy, it dawned on me that I should ask this community of ours for some suggestions on the MUST SEE Cioccolatieri! Specifically, I'll only be travelling around on a tight schedule after doing some coursework there, so "unfortunately," I'll be limited in my travels to the following places: Turin, Milan, Venice, Florence, and Rome, so I'm only looking for reccomendations for these cities. Furthermore, I'm fairly knowledgeable on the scene in Torino, so no need to mention Gobino, etc - unless there's a relatively unknown cioccolatiere or a specific confection (beyond gianduotti and bicerin) that I must know about. Also, feel free to shout-out your favorite Gelato or Caffe experiences - they'll be well received, I assure you.

Finally, I'll link the 4 forum/blog posts on this site that I've read already, so you won't have to link me to them (though please link any I missed here or elsewhere).

GRAZIE!

https://www.thechocolatelife.com/clay/blog/153/the-best-coffee-and-gelato-in-all-of-rome

https://www.thechocolatelife.com/roxanne-browning/blog/501/inspiring-journey-to-italy-from-the-north-to-sicily-for-old-new-chocolates-wines

https://www.thechocolatelife.com/vera-hofman/blog/397/visiting-turin-the-chocolate-capital-of-italy-and-the-cioccola-to-festival-march-1-5-2012

https://www.thechocolatelife.com/su/blog/154/ah-italy-the-foodthe-chocolate

Brad -

Just a quick note. Chocolat Naive produces a tempered chocolate bar that has honey in it. And they temper it in a continuous tempering machine. And it was not easy to figure it out how to do it. But - it's not impossible. 

I have an update. Whatever I did, I may have just changed my process and resolved the issue.

I changed too much to say that any one thing was the problem, so I wont venture to guess.

This time, I heated the stones, disassembled in the oven until they were reading 130F/54C

After assembly I added all of the ingredients very slowly.  77oz of cocoa nibs (i dont pregrind) took 2.5 hours. I'd add a little and let it go until they were liquid, then add more, etc.  I also added the sugar after 12 hours and again, it took about 45 mins to add the 23oz of sugar to total a 100oz batch.

Chocolate did get into the axle, but I'm seeing zero grit or granite dust. The wheels never seized, and the batch came out perfectly.  Surprisingly, I didnt even make it to the 24 hour mark in refining before it was done.

Something else I changed, I pulled the batch as soon as it was done.  I'm used to the santha, where if it's done at an inopportune time, I can release the tension on the wheel assembly and let it run indefinately (i've let the santha run for 2 weeks one time with no ill effects on the chocolate batch) 

So, if anyone else is seeing the issue, I might suggest adding your ingredients more slowly and be sure to preheat the drum/stones.  I'm also timing the time I put my batches in so that I can plan around pulling the batch and tempering/molding them up.

My thinking here is that the batch is finishing and getting fine particles sooner than I was expecting, and letting it run longer essentially had the effect of having granite run against granite, creating some of the dust.  I'm also thinking that adding just too much of the coarse dry ingredients also didnt help any at the dust creation.  Having too many of the dry ingredients too quickly also allowed the coarser particles into the axle shaft which allowed wearing down the axle, potentially grinding on the stone inside the gap. 

By all means, if my thinking is flawed; let me know. I've been known to be wrong once or twice

Note: I also put both machines through the dry sugar run, scrubbed them down completely and such in the process. So I think it's the combo of the bed-in process in addition to precautionary steps that combined to bring out a perfect batch. 77% 2 ingredient chocolate came out exactly as expected. I'm going to test on a milk chocolate batch before I try another white chocolate batch.

Thank you to everyone that gave input/suggestions here. It was greatly appreciated!

Thank you so much!  Unfortunately I think the extra frames puts this well out of range for me. I really only need one frame and the set brand new is $1400 for one.  So I do appreciate it but I'll have to pass on the large set. Thank you!  

I have a Dedy with 4 frames. $1,800 + Shipping

The 22.5 mm frame is missing 4 wires.  I bought replacement wire, but cannot find it.  Ten of the wires have heavy size 8 wire.  Three wires have the original size 6 wire.  I've really enjoyed the thick wire.  It hasn't broken and it's allowed me to cut caramels.  

You could certainly argue that "raw" cocoa butter isn't raw. BTW I would hazard a guess you had a batch with some fermentation issues, I don't think anything gets conched.

Like everyone else in the world (lol) I am in search of a lower priced Dedy all metal guitar with frame.  I am open to different sized frames.  

If you have one please contact me by and include pictures with asking price.  

Thanks!

Ok Clay.  Then the answer is very simple:

Honey is essentially a liquified sugar which contains 17-20% water by weight - enough to make it fluid, but not enough to allow pathogen growth (the well known golden 80% rule in the confectionary industry)

Water interferes with the crystalization of cocoa butter, causing it to thicken drastically, or sieze altogether. 

Chocolate is a finely balanced SUSPENSION of solid particulate in a fat (COCOA BUTTER) that exhibits certain, controllable behaviours.  Adding another type of fat, or a liquid to the chocolate - even in small amounts - inevitably messes with the ability of the fat to behave in the manner needed.

ergo, honey plus cocoa paste/chocolate = "ganache" and ganache cannot be tempered like a chocolate bar.

That's one of the (several) reasons manufacturers don't use honey to sweeten chocolate.

- See more at: https://www.thechocolatelife.com/fine-raw-chocolate-factory/forums/15842/fbm-chocolate-machine-for-sale#sthash.VBn0sD4L.dpuf

All -

I do not want this post to get into a discussion on the flavor/health benefits/merits (or lack thereof) or validity of raw chocolate - there are other threads that cover those issues. 

Lets stick to the topic: tempering, and how the addition of honey affects tempering. That is a question that applies to all chocolates, not just "raw" chocolates.

You say in your post above that you are using cocoa paste.  Does it taste like chocolate?  If so it isn't even remotely raw, and you shouldn't market it as such whether you're using honey or not.

JUST LIKE COFFEE BEANS DON'T TASTE LIKE COFFEE UNTIL THEY ARE ROASTED, COCOA BEANS DON'T TASTE LIKE CHOCOLATE UNTIL THEY HAVE BEEN ROASTED.  PERIOD.  PEOPLE LIE.  CHEMISTRY DOESN'T.

Furthermore, 99.9% of the cocoa paste you buy today goes well over the threshold for "raw" during the grinding and refining process (I have personally ground 10's of thousands of lbs of cocoa beans into cocoa paste.  I know what I'm talking about)

Given that cocoa beans don't taste like chocolate until they are roasted, and cocoa beans aren't called chocolate beans, and the trees aren't called chocolate trees, there is no such thing as "Raw Chocolate".  There is however, such a product as sweetened cocoa paste - exactly like you are making.

...but it's not chocolate, or anything close.

The Mast Brothers piss Clay off, and Raw Chocolate makers piss me off.  Why?  Both lie.

Brad

we had one batch of raw cacao butter doing that to our chocolate. It gave a more waxy feel to the chocolate and had a weird aftertaste.  I'm wondering if it has anything to do with the conching process as maybe volatiles were trapped in the cacao during processing and not allowed to escape.  We just told the supplier and got some from a different batch and were good again.

Thanks for both your inputs, I am going to experiment using dry sweeteners although I did really want honey to work out, I just can't afford to have half my batches not turn out well. I will calibrate the temperature on the machine as well.  My last batch I lowered the room temperature and it turned out great so that may be a huge issue.  I always run a dehumidifier in the room on days I make chocolate but I live in a humid climate so even with the dehumidifier running all day it still is usually 50-55% RH.  I use dehumidifying packs in the fridge as well. They are rated to dehumidify a small room so are ample enough for the fridge.  It's the same as those little packs you get in some products except I got large canisters of them that are reusable by drying in an oven.

Keeping a notebook is a great idea, I may try that. Thanks for all your tips.  I'm going to experiment on a few of those and see how it goes.

Thanks for the info, very appreciated. I have found that my extra dark flavor which is 90% cacao and 10% honey tends to have the best luck while my other flavors are around 15% honey and I have lots of problems. I'm guessing the 90% may be under the threshold of moisture which is why it works better. I did the last batch without coconut oil but still used the honey and I had problems again but remelted and retempered and lowered the temperature of the room I was working in and had better luck. I'm going to try a batch without the honey and use cane sugar and see if that completely solves the problem. My packaging is labelled as using honey though and I still have a lot of packaging to go through so may have to make a sticker to go over the ingredient list.

As far as the issues with raw, I realize that technically the fermentation process almost always goes over the proper temperatures however I do find a distinct difference in raw vs roasted chocolate. For one raw chocolate is highly stimulating and gives you a euphoric feeling due to the theobromine, serotonin, anandamide, and PEA. There is debate over theobromine and whether its good or bad.  It is a stimulant so I'd categorize it the same as caffeine and say it's ok in moderation. I have tried tons of the raw chocolate bars on the market and most of them don't give me those same feelings so I'm guessing the ones that don't are using cacao that has gone over the temperatures that have destroyed some of these properties but I'm not sure. I used to be all about raw however after reading much I'm indifferent about it.  I'd say its definitely not the healthy food that it's claimed to be however I'd say it's definitely not any worse than regular chocolate. I never get the euphoric feeling from a regular chocolate bar either.

With using honey I was trying to create something that was a little better than whats available as I do believe honey is a healthier sweetener in moderation than most others out there. My bars are dark with the highest percentage of honey being 15% and I also add hemp to my bars as an added bonus.  It's rare to find chocolate sweetened with honey and now I realize why.  I found one company based in the US that does and I sent them an email asking about how they get away with it.  They haven't replied yet but hopefully they don't feel threatened as I'm in Canada and offer no competition to them and just want to know how they get a nice temper on their product.

Again, thanks for the info.

Thank you @clay.

Neither would most natural butter 8)

A couple of other ideas. 

Using honey in a Chocovision machine may reduce the amount of mixing getting done. If the CB crystals are not distributed evenly then streaks on the front or back will be common. Break a bar at a streak to see if there is a difference in temper in the cross-section. If there is it is probably insufficient mixing, at least in part.

Also - you're working in small batches and even minute changes to the recipe and ambient humidity will affect the rheology of the chocolate, which will affect temper. You need to assess the temper for every batch, not rely on the machine to do it for you, or rely on a specific set of temperatures. This is a common problem that people who make chocolate fail to take into account. The recipe might be "the same" but small differences in processing and mixing can make a difference in the working characteristics of a chocolate.

Calibrating thermometers is important, but it's also important to know what the temp and RH are in the immediate vicinity of the tempering machine. Keep a notebook and when things don't go as planned, you might find that temps and/or humidity are part of the issue.

I would melt out some of both, mix them in varying percentages, solidify them, then taste against your original.

Also, not questioning your taste buds, but I have never seen a lot of cocoa butter that varied in the lot.

Hey Clay, Peter & Sebastian,

thanks so much for the feedback! We did of course order samples beforehand and seeing as it's the second time we've ordered from this supplier, we do have a good relationship and generally feel that the produce is at a high level. I suppose that there's not really much they can do if this is indeed part of the natural variation. It seems that this only affects a smaller part of the entire delivery.

I suppose my question now is: Is it possible to use these pieces with the nicer looking ones, say in a ratio of 1:10, without impacting the quality, smell or taste of the final product? Or maybe a different ratio?

The messaging system is set up so that messages can only be sent to people who follow each other. This is make it impossible for spammers to join the site and then immediately start contacting members privately and spamming them. Members have the option to auto-approve followers or to manually approve them (the default). Go to your profile page and look at the "Approve Followers" checkbox.

Of course, a deodorized cocoa butter could not remotely be considered raw.

I agree, I would not spend too much time chasing the adulteration angle, it will probably lead nowhere (and cost you a bit). The bigger question is- did you sample the lot before you bought it? Natural cocoa butter is variable from lot to lot, we would NEVER buy without a preshipment sample.

Mold will never be an issue as long as your butter has not gotten wet.  If it's stored improperly and gets wet, all kinds of things can go wrong.  The butter in your photos is not wet.

Insects can attack cocoa butter, but it's incredibly rare.  I've only ever seen it once. 

Re: comproimsed cocoa butter - it's actually quite easy to 'blend in' other oils to cheapen it, and can be measured/identified spectroscopically.  It's done with olive oil all the time (much of the 'pure' olive oil on stores shelves isn't as 'pure' as claimed).  It's very technical, and not many people know how to do it.  I'd probably not spend much time chasing that down if i were you, to be honest.

Hi Sebastian,

thank you so much for the feedback! that would definitely be the best case scenario so I'm happy to hear that! Do you happen to know if there is any kind of mould or insect that could even potentially attack cacao butter? I have heard about it for cacao beans but I'm not sure wether cacao butter has a suited environemnt for that kind of thing, seeing as it's pure fat.

Also, do you know of any tests that can be done to determine wether the raw ingredients are not compromised? 

All the best,

Sanja

There's nothing wrong with it at all.   You're seeing variation in natural cocoa butter, and the porous-ness of it is simply differences in how it cooled.

if you desire more consistency in color and flavor, you need to specify you want deodorized cocoa butter from your supplier.

Hi everyone,

I hope that someone can help me with this. We have been making raw chocolates using raw cacao butter and in a new batch we noticed that the structure, taste and smell of the butter is different. I am attaching two photos- one is the smooth and good cacao butter, the other one is the flawed butter that is porous in structure, has a slightly acidic smell and also tastes different in the final product.

We contacted our importer who said he will ask the supplier. We have dry and safe storage so I don't believe it's from our end, especially since we've always used the same storage for these supplies.

Any ideas on what this might be and also practical tips on how to tackle the issue with the importer or supplier?

Many thanks for your help!

 IMG_0524.JPG.jpg - 1.9MB

Certainly.  Took me forever to figure out how to use this sites messaging system too  8-)

If it helps any, what I've been doing is using dry ice, about once per month.  I recieved a shipment of 10  50kg bags of cocoa in September and immediately propped the bags up in a tarp and duct taped the tarp up the sides so it was at least semi tight.  I have been calculating based on the size/volume of the bags, and only use about 2-3 oz of dry ice per bag. I simply place the dry ice on top of the bag, and then cover the entire thing up with a tarp.  I do this once a month in the warmer months and at least locally this costs approx $5US. I've yet to see an issue with moisture and have yet to see any insect activity in any of the beans i've sorted and roasted. 

I'll note, I've not done this procedure since Dec when we got our freezing temps and the storage area dropped to a pretty steady 40F/4C. Temps are now up in the 80's and the storage area is holding stead around 65F.  I'm out there to get beans to sort, roast, and process at least every other day if not daily.

Now, being totally honest, I'm not sure how effective this is, as the area i'm in I have a very hard time keeping the wolf spider and black widow population under control with monthly sprayings of pyrethren insecticide. So, either i've been effective with the dry ice or the spiders are fed  

[edit] something to note though, I live in a desert. So a 30% humidity is a high humidity day. Right now we're about 16%.[/edit]

Off the bat, I can say that honey may cause issues. Honey contains water, and water and chocolate dont mix. It can cause the chocolate to seize and pull the cocoa solids out of suspension. However, whatever your doing you're getting to the point where you can pour into molds.  The issue looks similar to what I've been fighting all chocolate season. No matter how I temper, the molds wont set right and they fall out of temper.

Two things that solved the issue for me is a) double check your thermometer and calibrate your tempering machine. It may not be working right as the thermistor may have drifted somewhat and if possible you may need to recalibrate that, or work around what the drift is. Part of my issue is my thermometer was off by over 4F, so when I was tempering I thought I was "within range" but in fact, I was 4F hotter than the upper limits of the range, so I was never actually in temper to begin with.  That may or may not be your issue here, but after 2 consecutive years having similar issues it's my first go-to troubleshooting step when tempering is an issue.

Second is the temp your molds are setting up/cooling in.  If that's too warm, the chocolate can fall out of temper.  From trial and error experience as well as reading a bit online, optimum room temp to deal with chocolate is between 68-70F/20-21C  It may be beneficial to get a cooling tunnel, cold box, or some sort of cooling area for the chocolate.  Optimum temps based on various forum posts seem to be 55F/12.8C, I'm still working on my cold box which is a temperature controlled fridge setup with a fan inside for airflow.  55 is my starting temp.

You have a chance of running into issues using a fridge, although it is quite possible and many do that without issue.  The problem is a refrigerator will end up by being too cold. And as a result if you leave the molds in too long, condensation is a very real risk. If condensation forms it can cause sugar bloom and ruin the batch. 

Something else to note that you didnt mention: Are you performing a temper test to ensure the tempering machine is giving you proper temper or are you relying on the machine to give you tempered chocolate?  The reason I ask is you can see my results. My room temp rose up to 74F/23.3C. Which, frankly, is normal for my area.  However, I'd get a clean temper test, but the molds would start to swirl and/or discolor.  The back swirls are obvious, the discoloration of the chocolate touching the molds wasnt any different in most respects than what you've shown.

 74f_room_temp_Temper.jpg - 42KB

Note: As far as will they attack beans or finished product, they may prefer beans but if you give them access to finished goods they WILL get to them. Guaranteed.

Emulsifier will not help in your situation.

1. Honey contains about 17% water, every 10% of honey in your recipe brings in 1.7% water content. Water content in chocolate generally should be below 0.3% total.

2. Coconut oil is not compatibile with cocoa butter and any additions will create difficulties in tempering or make it impossible.

I'm afraid that we may be talking a very different language and the same words may have very different meanings.

As Brad pointed out earlier in this thread may people would consider "raw chocolate" somewhere in the "misleading customer" category as usually the ingredients used are not raw and product produced is not what a "reasonable jury" would consider chocolate. This means that if this thread continues there may be some strong opinions on what you are trying to do. Proceed at your own risk.

Could you please describe what are you trying to achieve, how are you making your chocolate and what are you planning to do with it?

Hi. I am interested but could not send you a private message. Please feel free to email @ blueasters115@yahoo.com. Thanks

Yeah, I fear I'll have to eliminate those ingredients, Any idea if adding an emulsifier would help me keep honey as a sweetener? The coconut oil i'm willing to eliminate, it makes the chocolate softer which is nice but if it interferes with tempering it can be eliminated.

Our recipe was developed before we started tempering our chocolate and kept it refrigerated instead so it worked great then but with tempering it has given problems

I would strongly suggest looking at recipe.

Adding honey as a sweetener introduces a lot of water into the product and coconut oil will seriously impact tempering process.

32 in Montezuma chocoalte fountain-

http://www.walmart.com/ip/13225414?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227010573784&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=52283766015&wl4=&wl5=pla&wl6=78216789447&veh=sem

$1,895 OBO + buyer pays shipping

please call or tx for details: 239-980-9753 Justin

Selling a FCC-4 chocolate case. Its a beautible case but as I have no need for it anymore. Used but in great condition!

https://www.acitydiscount.com/Federal-48-Chocolate-Confectionery-Display-Case-Non-Refrigerated-FCC-4.0.130524.1.1.htm?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse&utm_campaign=cse_goo&ppcid=22&link=130524&gclid=CNOdsODX-MoCFY8bgQodeisNYA

$3,200 OBO+ Buyer pays shipping 

Please call or tx for information: 239-980-9753 Justin

 IMG_9744 (800x533).jpg - 196KB

I am doing raw chocolate and have been for a while using cacao paste, cacao butter, coconut oil, and honey as a sweetener. I've been having a lot of troubles with it. Some batches turn out amazing and some look like the pic here. I am trying this next batch without coconut oil to see if that changes things. I'd rather stick with using honey as a sweetener but am also looking into different types of emulsifiers to add that may help with making sure a liquid sweetener will work properly. I am also using a tempering machine so the temperatures are pretty consistent. This was posted a while ago so if you have any tips since you posted this please feel free to share with me, thanks

 12728873_10153897488766069_3792051449944251790_n.jpg - 130KB

I have a Pralinenfix PFM-200 depositor for sale. It has two nozzles (can accomodate 8), is in very good condition, and was only used a few times. This is all stainless steel and very heavy duty. It's perfect for dispensing chocolate into polycarbonate molds and has very accurate and adjustable dispensing amounts. This unit has a heated nozzle deck - uses 110v, single-phase, standard plug.

I'm asking $2,500.  Please email me for photos and/or questions.  (We are no longer in business and this is the last remaining piece of equipment.)

Thanks.

Nora (noraj003@yahoo.com)

Well, it looks like Erin pointed out that the plastics are made from Delrin.  I can tell from experience with that material that it doesnt expand/contract with heating very much at all.  

As for the flavor of the chocolate that got up that hot, it was good. This was a 2 ingredient batch that was being refined and ended up by getting a little more bitter/cocoa flavors and some of the more delicate notes were cut out.  I cant say it was bad or good compared to normal, this was the first real batch like that with that percentage (77%) that I've made. So I really have nothing to compare it to.

After noting the higher heat though, I did realize that I was kind of taking advantage of the higher sheer power of the Wonder grinders and adding things a little faster than I would in, say, my Santha.  So that may be the sole reason it got quite *that* hot.  Generally, if you're more careful and steady about adding the ingredients, the friction would be limited and thus the heat.