Forum Activity for @Alek Dabo

Alek -

There are no companies in the US making continuous tempering machines in the same class as the names you mention - Pomati, Selmi, FBM, Savy Goiseau, etc., and Gami, Bakon, Chocolate World ... names you did not mention.

If you can, I advise you to take a look inside the machines to see how they are made. What is the size of the tempering auger and pipe? How is the chocolate warmed and cooled? What safety features are in place to keep the operator from inadvertantly damaging the machine?

If you look at the evolution of the technology you will see that these all operate using a screw to transport chocolate from a working bowl where all the crystals are melted out through a cooled pipe to generate and mix the crystals. There is an originator of the technology and all of the follow-on brands are engineering copies to one extent or another. That's one of the reasons they all look so much alike.

However, it turns out the there are significant differences in things like the shape of the working bowl (e.g., deep and narrow versus wide and shallow), the auger and the pipe (e.g., the diameter of the pipe and the depth of the auger flights), and the position of the temperature sensors among other details, that make a difference with respect to overall tempering performance, including the ability to resist over-tempering over the course of the work day. In addition, some machines are heated and cooled with water jackets, some use heated resistance wire and recirculating cooling gas, and others use a combination of these techniques; and there are advantages and disadvantages to the various approaches. There are machines, from LCM and others, that use different approaches to tempering. The LCM approach, for example, makes it impossible (in their minds) to add a dosing option.

You should also pay close attention to the power of the motor driving the tempering auger (as well as the ratio of the gearbox) if you are going to be tempering two-ingredient (high viscosity) chocolate. I can tell you from experience that some motors are under-powered and will burn out faster than others. Two-ingredient chocolate also tends to be more abrasive than conventional couverture - especially that made in Indian wet-grinders - so that has an impact on the bearings and seals on the tempering motor, gearbox, and pipe.

Continuous tempering machines need to create and maintain a delicate balance of factors to temper and maintain temper. If you are making chocolate from beans, two different batches of the same recipe might not have identical tempering profiles. If they taste at all different and/or have a different mouth feel, the tempering will be different. This is one of the hardest points for some people to wrap their heads around. These machines are not artificially intelligent and they can only do what you tell them to do, and the vast majority of them are designed to work with commercial couverture that tend to be of a lower viscosity.

Other things to consider are the location the machine will be in. If it's in a kitchen that will never be seen by the public, how important is the sheet metal? Are you paying for bling or performance? Which is more important to you?

Another thing to consider is that some machines are made to order (so they can be customized) while most are built in advance and you can only buy stock configurations.

Finally, I have learned to pay attention to the following phrase, " You do not get what you don't pay for. "

I am looking for my first continuous tempering machine - around 12kg capacity - and would like to widen my options beyond FBM and Selmi which can be seen in many chocolate workshop in the Americas. What about Pomati? Since all the makers are Italians, how is customer service in the US? I found Savy Goiseau in France and others in Switzerland and Germany but they only have large machine. Any US alternative?

Thank you very much.

Price :US$ 2.000 + shipping

Batch Tempering machine from " Design & Realisation " as in https://www.dr.ca/tf20-chocolate-tempering-machine-20kg-44lbs.html . Capacity 44 Lbs (20Kg).

Comes with the Moulding wheel as in https://www.dr.ca/moulding-wheel-for-tf20-chocolate-tempering-machine.html

Some blemishes due to usage. Works perfectly. Full process can be seen atFaire son chocolat

The vibrating table comes with the Tempering machine.

Estimated shipping cost to the US $ 80

 Tempering whell.jpg - 164KB

Gap - yes.  Aging it untempered does almost nothing (there is some volatilization that's occuring), but again, the main driver is crystallization and melt.  If stored untempered, it's still crystallizing to some point, but the first thing a user will do is temper it, which will destroy any crystallization that may have happened to occur by happenstance.

LLY - i can't speak to what books you are reading, but i can say that just because you've read something, doesn't mean it's true.  Even if what you're reading is what i'm saying 8-)  Although, to be clear, i'm pretty confident that what i'm saying is true.  As in really, very confident.  

Flavor is an incredibly complex beast.  Flavor is due 100% to chemistry, yes.  Flavor change, however, is also chemistry, just a different kind.  Physical chemistry plays a huge part of how your body perceives flavor.

That is definately enough time to dry out the sugars.  Perhaps your scale isn't precise enough to capture the difference?  4% of 100g, for example, would be 4 grams of moisture loss (which is a TON of moisture for a refined sugar, by the way - i'd expect that number to be closer to 1, or less)

Hello. After two years of constant use, the stones in my large cocoatown grinder is very smooth. The smooth seems to contribute to more roller sticking and less smoothness in the chocolate. Has anyone re-roughened the surface of these stones? Any thoughts, comments?

I like how you think!

I have one - contact me at jim@unionmachinery.com thanks

Jim Greenberg

Please contact me if you have a flow wrapper available...on the small scale side.   Thank you!

Quick update.  I upgraded the amp to this 2x100 watt unit for $20.  It works really well!  I'm currently using a 24vdc 2amp power supply I had lying around and I can only turn it up to about 70% power before my power supply can't keep up but it still works great.  I would recommend at least a 5amp or ideally a 10amp power supply.

Link: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01FXE2TD8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Wow, thank you for your answer.
I agree to all what you mentioned above.
But, you allege that chocolate continue to crystallized month after and not couple of days, as I recall it contradict books that I read. (I know that there will be always 5%-20% of liquid cacoa butter depand if it's grow very close to the equator or not)
Secondly, the taste not evolve also from chemical reactions? it's hard to believe that the changes occurs solely because of the cacao butter solidification.

Based on the above Sebastian, is it fair to say that chocolate should be "aged" in a tempered & moulded state?

I see a lot of people ageing their chocolate straight from the grinding/refining/conching machine in a large tub in an untempered state. But based on the above, when they melt it all to temper and mould it, wouldn't that re-liquefy the ccb and restart some form of ageing process as it solidifies again in its now tempered/moulded state?

When you temper chocolate, you're converting some % of your liquid cocoa butter to solid cocoa butter crystals.  Much of it actually remains liquid, even after you've demoulded your chocolate.  It may look solid - and much of it is - however there's still a very significant portion of cocoa butter that remains fluid.  Over time, some of that liquid cocoa butter will continue to crystallize.  It never, ever, fully crystallizes (there will always be some portion of liquid cocoa butter - it will be much more than you think!).

Why is this important?  Because how fat melts is important to how flavor releases.  As you've already noted, the chocolate you demould today tastes different than that exact same chocolate 30 days from now.  Why?  It's predominately because of the above mentioned crystallization kinetics.  There's a couple of other reasons, to be sure, but that one has the largest impact.

All chocolate (that does not have inclusions in it, or added volatile flavors) - will have stabilized to the point where trained panelists can no longer detect a statistically relevant rate of change after about 28 days, when stored in a controlled, stable environment.  Physiochemically, the crystallization kinetics continue to evolve.  However, between 28 days and 35 days - there is no statistical difference detected.  At some point - very far out - there will again be a difference (related to hardness, as both the volume fraction of crystals is larger as well as the physical form of the crystals begins to change) - but we're talking years out.  If you've got an extreme or highly variable environment, everything above changes.  

For products that contain a lot of milk, depending on how it's processed, you can run into something called the glass transition (Tg) temperature, impacting lactose.  It essentially turns it from a crystal into an amorphous fluid.  This again changes how flavor is released (both due to how it dissolves, as well as how much moisture it's able to hold on to - this gets into specific physical chemistry that i won't go into here).

Also be aware that your packaging can impact flavor (either via diffusing aromas from the packaging into the chocolate itself, or by letting the aromatics of the chocolate escape if they don't have good barrier properties).

Viscosity is not just a matter of temperature (but that's part of it) - mostly a matter of fat percentage: the lower the fat content the higher the viscosity at any given temperature.

1200 RPM? 120, you mean. Why is 116F too hot?

Even with a chain drive it makes a lot of sense to schedule one weekend a month for maintenance. Take off the covers, look closely, vacuum out any dust that may have accumulated, etc. If you don't want to do it monthly, then do it before you enter into critical production periods. If the summer is slow and you start holiday production in September, schedule the maintenance for August so you can take care of it before it becomes an issue that interrupts production. Same for between Christmas and Valentine's Day, etc. It's only a few hours but it can save major frustration and downtime during key periods.

While many people fill the bowl above the axle, that's not a good idea, as it reduces the efficiency of the machine.

Sure, you are processing more product at the same time, but the extra processing time does not seem to be linear: overfilling by 10% increases processing time by greater than 10%.

Viscosity is what is going to affect the longevity of the grinder. The thicker the chocolate the greater the strain on the motor at any given level of pressure.

The belts are likely to go before the motor. Routine maintenance, including changing belts, is an important part of getting the most out of any grinder.

Hi,
First, thank you for your answer.
I didn't found and scientific facts about this phenomena in "Minifie, B.W.-Chocolate, Cocoa and Confectionery Science and Technology" for example.
The fact that is takes around 2 months is interesting..
I observed more pronounce aging in the white chocolate, probably because of the very high milk powder content.
Now, after you shed some light on the subject: I assume that the chemical reactions takes weeks to achieve equilibrium, the kinetics in the chocolate is slow because is solid state diffusion (except for the 5-20% of liquid cacao butter in room temperature)..
Hence, in high room temperature ~28C (in my house) the diffusion is faster and it takes around 10-14 days.

Interesting issue..

Y -

Most chocolate is made to be eaten more or less immediately, or manufacturers rely on the length of the supply chain (typically months between when a chocolate is made and it ends up on a shelf to be sold) to take care of aging. I think this is one of the reasons that there has not been a lot of research into what happens to the flavor of chocolate as it ages.

I was speaking with an expert on this a couple of weeks ago, and was told that it takes 6-8 weeks for most chocolates to achieve reasonable stability (defined as ~80% of expected flavor change). My own experience suggests that chocolates made from beans with lower levels of fermentations and/or lower roast levels requires more aging than chocolates made from  beans meeting the 80% well-fermented "standard" and that have been roasted harder.

I have not come across any research that explains what happens, but chemical changes are happening, and, as the chocolate continues to crystallize, the release of flavors is also affected.

The answer to the question, "How long?" can only be determined by experimentation using your recipes. I had a chocolate made with Mexican pimienta about 48 hours after it was made and then 10 days after it was made and the flavor of the pimienta was more pronounced, not less.

Great! Thanks for sharing!

You could add an informational note to the finished product, something like :

"Rithmically molded bubble free using Skrillex™ @ 50Hz" :P

Hi. I'm interested in the Perfect enrober, and the small panner. Please e-mail at chapelcove@outlook.com.

Tom, I'd like to see that as well, thanks.

Hi Curtis. I'm interested if still available. Email me please at chapelcove@outlook.com.

Hello,
There is no doubt that the chocolate continue to crystallized couple of days after moulding, hence, the texture will change, this is obvious.
The strongest taste changing is in my white chocolate, after two weeks the sweetness decreased.
I tried to put 1% of coffee in my white chocolate, couple of days after the taste was strong coffee with aftertaste. After 10 days the coffee taste is almost unnoticed.

So I wondering, how long do I need to keep my chocolate in order to evaluate his real taste?
And why it is all happen, is not 100% clear?

Thank's

what about dried fruits like goji berries?

Aimee -

There are very few  small tempering machines that accept enrobers.

Chocovision makes one that fits some of their machines, but from what I have heard, it does not work all that well. There is no blower (to remove excess chocolate) nor is there a de-tailer, or a proper take-off, so it's messy and slow. It also looks like it's a single curtain so there could be coverage issues. From what I can tell looking at the Chocovision web site they are working on a new one . Perhaps it will have engineering upgrades to address the issues early customers brought up.

Hilliard's offers a couple of size options for their " coaters " based on batch temperers. From the pictures on the site it's hard to tell how complete the base systems are but I don't see what I would consider to be required components for a fully-featured enrober on their smaller systems (e.g., blower, exit section, de-tailer, take-off). That said - there are a lot of them in production so people must like them.

There are a number of manufacturers of continuous tempering machines - you may know names like Selmi and Pomati. I work with one of them (FBM) and to my knowledge FBM is the only company that offers a complete enrobing system on a small continuous temperer - the Prima . 

I say small in relative terms. The Prima has a 10kg (~22lb) working bowl and can temper up to 30kg (~65lbs) of chocolate per hour. The belt is 18cm (about 7") wide. When you think about it, if you need to put 500 pieces per hour (about eight pieces per minute) through the machine and each piece requires 10gr of chocolate to cover it completely, then you only need 5kg of chocolate per hour. Other companies that make continuous tempering machines do not offer enrober belts on machines with bowl capacities of less than 25kg (75kg/hr throughput).

The enrober FBM offers is complete. It comes in two parts, a working section that is comprised of the entry section, bottomer (sometimes called a pre-bottomer), double-curtain veil, net beater, blower, de-tailer rod; and a separate take-off section.

It is not inexpensive, but as people are probably tired of hearing me say, "You don't get what you don't pay for." If you are interested I can introduce you to a dealer who can price one for you.

For sale :

80gr chocolate mould - New, still in bag - classic style - 140 pieces @ 500USD

40gr chocolate mould - Used - contemporary style - 240 pieces @ 780 USD

If you take both, I will add 40 pieces of praline moulds for free

The items are located in Thailand.

Prices exclude shipping and taxes.

Contact at: tiborbaan@yahoo.com

 40gr mould.jpg - 118KB

Please contact at: tiborbaan@yahoo.com

Please contact at: tiborbaan@yahoo.com

Gami T260 continuous tempering machine for sale due to closing business.

The equipment is located in Thailand.

Price: 4500 USD excluding shipping and taxes

 Gami T260 temperer.jpg - 95KB

For Sale 2 sets of"Macintyre" style conch refiners, due to closing business. They are Chinese made.

Capacity: 40L

The equipment is located in Thailand.

Price for the two: 7,000 USD excluding shipping and taxes.

 Refiner conches.jpg - 90KB

Ah, that makes sense, thanks.

I'm shocked reading papers from 70 years ago that are asking the same questions as I had visiting processing centres last week - and not finding much that's published since or that would explain why the state of the art hasn't visibly changed much.

Besides Zoi's papers suggested by Clay, are there other starting points to our modern understanding of what happens in fermentation?

inter cellular transport of materials is responsible for much of the flavor development reactions that occur (or the precursor reactions).  metallic compounds participate in a number of flavor reactions.

Can you elaborate on this? Googling for self-reducibility doesn't really enlighten (and gets me a lot of computer science results)

Raw honey (Do your own research on GI of this, what I've read and am convnced of is it's the same as coconut nectar, 30-35)  and raw coconut nectar rather than sugar.  Stevia of course, though I don't enjoy the aftertaste

Are these still for sale? Please email me at souleverchocolates@gmail.com if so.

I own a small chocolate business in Seattle.  Currently I use the two-piece silicon molds to make ganaches, and then I double dip them in the basic Chocovision Revolations.  I'd like to grow my business and need to invest in an enrobing machine with an attached temperer. Can anyone offer advice about what machines are best at the lowest price, and how user friendly they are?

I am planning a trip to Southern India in early September and would like to connect with chocolate professionals and growers.

Does anyone have contacts?

I'm a big fan of the Fuji - www.fujispray.com - they are putting together a chocolate system these days after I started referring a lot of chocolatiers there. They do go through the cocoa butter - but they are fast - and time is money.

I've been making some of my own coloured cocoa butters using the IBC Power Flowers - you can get consistent colours using their palette to mix. 

Steve: 

Post-harvest processing of cacao happens at many different scales, from very small to very large. Ironically, it is the smallest producers who might benefit most from improving the consistency of fermentation and drying ... and they are the least able to afford it. However, one way to figure out how to drive down costs is to start somewhere and put the equipment and techniques into production.