Forum Activity for @Clay

I personally don't know anyone who's selling used equipment for this scale of production.

You may find someone selling used in the UK here in the classifieds on TheChocolateLife. CocoaTowns and their ilk are likely, I have no idea if there is any used Kudvic machinery, but they are comparatively expensive, per kilo of batch capacity, new. You could contact CPS to see if they know of any used equipment.

Malcolm at Vantage House may also know of used items.

I do know them, but we are looking to purchase used equipment rather than new. We are wanting to scale up our production to 300 bars per week and have been looking at cocoa town eg65 and a russian provider called kudvic. But we are interested in any brands that will fulfil that sort of production level. 

Do you know Vantage House ? They handle pretty much everything you need if you are interested in smaller-scale production. How much chocolate do you want to make in a given day/week/month?

Hello.

Is this still for sale?

Thanks Clay!

Im looking to add to my chocolate making equipment and basically improve my set up. Based in the UK and interested in grinders, breakers and winnowers. Get in touch if you have anything you think might be of interest. Cheers

@helion:

Thanks for the kind words ... but it is the community that does most of the important work here by being open and sharing.

50F is too cold. 55F is better.

Do you have a digital hygrometer in your work space? If not, get one. Ideally it will log the humidity over the course of the day and you can download that into a computer and keep track. If not it should measure the current humidity and the peak humidity over the past 24 hours.

A good starting working humidity is ~55%. The closer you can keep the entire work space at that level or below the easier your job will be. Humidity in the air will always condense on a colder surface if the humidity is above the dew point and the temperature of the surface is below the dew point.

Your best approach is to work to keep the ambient environment humidity (temp is ideally ~68-72F) as close to 55% as you can. You can do this with a dehumidifier - try and get one that exhausts the humidity into the warm exhaust air and then pipe the exhaust to the exterior. This will remove the humidity from the space and you will not have to plumb the humidifier to a drain or constantly dump buckets.

Just having a cabinet that lowers the humidity will not address your condensation problem. You can increase the temperature of the cabinet (up to 60F or so) but that will increase the amount of time required to cool. Increasing the airflow may help with that, to some extent, but you do have to remove the heat from the cabinet.

Thanks Clay.

Model LM3, 120v/60Hz. Only used twice and wasn't right for our job. In like new condition, with one container/lid.

Asking $290

Shipping included to continental U.S.

Contact info@verucachocolates.com for more information

 krea_swiss_(krebs)_lm3_hotchoc_heated_chocolate_sp_32001.jpg - 52KB

Hilliard 10" Compact Coater enrober with 240 lb per day tempering melter and 6 ft. cooling tunnel - $20,000. 

Call Maritza Pichon at 678-427-7736

 Enrober.jpg - 493KB

Kim:

I have uploaded the current catalog page for the Prima that lists the prices and accessories. Click on this link to go to the file download page and then click on the PDF icon to download the file.

There is a Prima going to IBIE in October and it's 20% off, plus you pay only shipping from Las Vegas. I am confirming the electrical configuration (might be 3-phase). Another ChocolateLife member has already expressed interest in it, but we can extend the show discount to you, even if we can't offer shipping from Las Vegas.

:: Clay

Will do!

Sarah Ann -

I will get you pricing info to your email within the next 48 hours.

Christopher is right in saying that it can be made quite easily. A Robot Coupe should easily be handle it depending on the consistency you're looking for. Smaller blenders (even Vita Mixes) are underpowered in my experience.

You can also purchase praliné paste. Callebaut is one option, as are Felchlin, Valrhona, and others. I would look to AgriMontana as well (they, along with Domori, are owned Illy) but they make the nut ingredients for Domori. Very good. But - take a look at the ingredients list, especially on cheaper products as they may not be clean label.

Calum -

Vantage House is a UK distributor for Everlasting, which is located in Italy. I am representing Everlasting in the US through another distributor.

The largest unit accepts 20, full-size sheet (US) pans. Temperature control as well as humidity control. These are also fast recovery time units, which means they return to the set temperature and humidity points very quickly. There is also two-door unit which reduces air transfer when opening and closing doors.

These units are designed to crystallize and hold chocolate and do a good job at it. I would use perfed sheet pans. Let me know and I can get some pricing for you.

To address the point @helion brings up: humidity is more of an issue in some locations than others. I don't know where you are located, but in general, being able to control the humidity in the environment is a very good idea. Controlling humidity within the fridge (not just in the room) provides extra control that is valuable, it's not a replacement for humidity control in the working space.

A PID temperature controller is one way to take a fridge that does not operate in the 55F range and get it to operate there. It does this by turning the unit on and off. Robust compressors are an absolute necessity when cycling like this.

Sounds good Clay,

I am planning to come to LV. Not sure yet if I will be driving or flying so shipping could be an option. I am located in St Petersburg, FL.

Please forward me the prices at your convenience.  bcurly@msn.com

Thank You,

Curly

Is this machine still available?

Is this guitar still available?

Hello Clay. 

Great info. What is the cost on that Prima?

Clay, 

can you email me about the price for the prima with/without the enrober? I live very close to Vegas and can come to the shoe to check out the machine. My email is sarah@chocolita.com . 

Jeez - I even checked my trusty text (Peter Greweling's Chocolates & Confections, 2nd ed., p.277) to make sure the accent was correct. Thanks a lot, Greweling!

Anyway, as I mentioned, you can still Google "praline paste" (or "praliné") and find recipes or sites that sell it in bulk (e.g., Callebaut). It's not difficult to make, though if you need a bunch you can buy it. 

Okay, I think it is Clay's option 2, (prah-li-nay), based on the spelling with the accent on the 'e', which is in the book.  Do you know if it's available for purchase in larger quantities, or do I have to make my own?  Any recommendations?

Praline is one of the most overloaded words in chocolate, and what you are talking about depends on spelling and pronunciation. The origin of the term is reputed to be the household of the Gilbert Choiseul du Plessis-Praslin, where caramelized nuts were first accidentally cooked.

Praline (pray-leen). The words the Belgians use the way the French use bon bon. Usually a shell-molded piece, but it can refer to hand-rolled and slabbed/enrobed pieces as well.

Praliné (prah-li-nay). This is a caramelized nut paste. However, it can also refer to caramelized nuts (especially when referring to the products of Mazet de Montargis). A coarse (not completely refined) praliné is often referred to as praliné l'ancienne (ancient).

Praline (prah-leen). This is what Christopher is referring to as being from New Orleans. Usually a disk of caramelized sugar (below hard crack) dotted with pecans.

Curly -

FBM is officially closed for most of the month of August. I will reach out to the president and see what can be done. I think that it is highly likely - and we can offer you the 20% discount.

If we can get the order in right when FBM reopens (we can work on that in the next couple of weeks) we can get it made and ship it to you. Would you be planning to come to LV to see the ProXima in operation and get some training on it?

It could make sense to ship the enrober directly to you (you'd be on the hook for international shipping) rather than via LV. Where are you located?

:: Clay

I would not expect vanilla to have any ability at all to increase sourness.  Perhaps taste your vanilla directly (or disperse it in water) - to see if there's a defect in your vanilla bean.  Any defect that would result in sourness should be very visually obvious, i'd think,  unless the beans were soaked in vinegar or something. 

If you're using a single fold extract (ie 1x strength), 0.5% is usually sufficient.  Obviously tastes vary, but that's a good starting point to consider.  Add towards the end as vanilla's a fairly volatile flavor and if you add it at the beginning of a 72hr grinding cycle, you're going to lose quite a bit of it.

Oh, "praline"....such a complicated little word. Where I'm from - New Orleans - and the rest of the Southern US, the praline is a crystallized-sugar pecan confection (pro-tip: the less-traditional kind with cream are awesome for the 1st 5-10 minutes of their life...after that, "meh.") which was adapted from the almond version born in France. In modern day France, Belgium, and most of Europe, a praliné is a bonbon or an enrobed chocolate (tbh- not positive if it's used for both molded and enrobed).

However, I'd guess Wybauw means the third option: praline paste. Some consider the traditional version to be simply caramelized hazelnut paste, while others say it's a caramelized mixture of hazelnuts and almonds made into a paste, and still others would say any caramelized nut paste will do depending on your recipe and whims. One simply caramelizes the nuts (Untoasted! They will cook in the caramel.) and processes them in a food processor until the nuts express their oils and a paste forms. Google "praline paste" and you'll find some recipes. 

Bon Appétit!

We used 1kg of cocoa beans (70% dark chocolate)  with 35 mg of vanilla (not extract) .  We used a very acidic cocoa  bean and a mild acidic cocoa bean.  24 to 72 hours of conching.  The strong flavor (not good) was the same regardless of the conching time.  I guess too much vanilla.  Any suggestions in the percentage of vanilla that should be used? 

I am reading one of Jean-Pierre Wybauw's books, and "praline" is an ingredient in many formulas.  I've always considered a praline a finished product.  Can anyone enlighten me on what this ingredient is?  Thank you!

FINALLY.....

After 8 years I have put in place an order and delivery system.

For those of you out there who have always wanted to try my company's chocolate, we are now taking orders and shipping throughout North America.

Oh.... and I have updated our website too, so would like feedback on that.

Please give our order system a try.  I would like to work out any kinks before the Christmas season approaches!

Cheers

Brad Churchill

Choklat

Clay,

I could be very interested in the Proxima from the LV show. Is there any chance that there could be an enrobing system available at the same time and place?

Thank You,

Curly

Pavoni Polycarbonate Chocolate Mold, Smooth Round 21 Cavities

Lot of 30 molds for sale. Will only sell in increments of 10. Buy all 30, 20 or 10. Please note: I will only sell in increments of 10. So you can buy 10, 20, or 30 molds. Not 5, 15, or 21 

Bought from Bakedeco about a year ago. These molds show some minor use, i.e. choc residue, some superficial cracks on a couple of molds at the corners where I was a little overzealous with the tap out. Always hand washed and dried. Make lovely little forms for pralines, etc. Beautiful glassy finish every time. Selling because got new molds! See bakedeco listing: bakedeco.com

Price New = $22.50 per mold 

ASKING PRICE = $11.25 per mold - 50% off original price. BUYER PAYS SHIPPING based on SHIP TO address. 

30 molds = $337.50 + shipping

20 molds = $225.00 + shipping

10 molds = $112.50 + shipping

Please message if there are any questions and thanks! I can be reached directly at: bunkburger@yahoo.com 

Specs & Pics Below: 

Smooth-round chocolate mold
Unadorned by design
An Artisanal-series polycarbonate mold

Each cavity 28mm diameter x 14mm high
Each round chocolate piece about 10 grams
Size of mold 5-1/4 inch x 10-3/4 inch

• Toughness of polycarbonate enables use of mold numberless times
• Glassiness of surface lets you turn the mold upside down to have finished chocolates fall out
• Made in Italy

 FullSizeRender.jpg - 490KB

Aly -

Where are you located?

Located in Modesto, CA.

I have 1 kilo and 2 kilo blocks of 70% Organic Costa Rican Southern zone couverture made with coconut nectar sugar.  www.samaritanxocolata.com  I can give you a wholesale price if you buy more than 2 kilos...contact me direct:  samaritanxocolata@gmail.com  

IBIE Show Special Offers

• 20% discount off list price
• Customs cleared (permanent entry)
• Only pay shipping from Las Vegas (plus re-crating fee)
• Ships from Las Vegas after the show (October 8-11)
• OR pick up from LVCC after the show
• ProXima and Maestria are 208~220V 60Hz 3-phase; Prima is  208~220V 60Hz single-phase
  

FBM Prima  - SOLD

FBM ProXima  - SOLD

NEW FBM Maestria60

• 60kg working bowl (was 45kg)
• Prearrangement to accept enrober belt and mold loader
• Craft Chocolate upgrade
• Pneumatic doser w/ auger speed controller

Contact Clay Gordon if you are interested.

Payment must be made in full before the end of the show.

Peter:

FBM has developed a response to your concerns about interrupting the flow of chocolate when depositing into molds.

In most tempering machines that use augers to transport the chocolate through the pipe the flow of chocolate is controlled by starting and stopping the auger. When this happens repeatedly over a short period of time the dwell time of the chocolate in the pipe changes, which can change temper. Plus, because the flow of chocolate is not constant the rate of melting in the bowl is not constant, leading to over-crystallization.

FBM offers, as an option on some of its machine, a pneumatically-controlled doser. When installed, a pneumatic valve (i.e., one that is operated by compressed air) is installed at the top of the tempering pipe. When closed (the default position) the chocolate is diverted down a separate pipe into the working bowl. When the dosing function is activated, the valve opens and the chocolate flows to the mold. After the desired time, the valve closes. In other words, the tempering auger never stops turning and the flow of chocolate is never interrupted. This design eliminates virtually of the drawbacks associated with controlling the flow of chocolate by starting and stopping the auger.

I don't disagree with you about getting a machine that is larger than absolutely necessary, because parameter that affects the consistency of temper include how rapidly the amount of chocolate in the bowl changes and how full the bowl is. It's much harder to maintain temper when the bowl is one-quarter full than when it is full and when you're emptying the bowl faster than the nominal tempering capacity. (FBM's rule of thumb is that the tempering capacity/hr of a machine is 3x the bowl capacity - assuming the bowl is kept full.) However, in my experience, people tend to under-buy capacity because of the expense involved. Having an outboard melter that automatically keeps the working bowl of the tempering machine is a great option to consider if high throughput is required.

FBM also offers three-zone tempering on some of its machines. This can help quite a bit in fine-tuning and maintaining the consistency of temper over the course of work shift.

Of course, the chocolate(s) being used also affect the ability of a machine to reach temper in the first place as well as maintain temper over time.

Not surprisingly, the location of the thermocouples used to measure the temperature come into play, and it is possible that a thermocouple is not properly adjusted within the flow of chocolate. This can lead to difficulty in reaching and maintaining temper.

And, finally, there are differences in software that can account for some of this. FBM has, on its larger machines, a "soft" and a "hard" tempering curve. This refers to how aggressive the chocolate is cooled. In the soft setting the chocolate is cooled more slowly. In the hard tempering setting the chocolate is cooled quickly until it comes to within a set number of degrees above the temper point, and then cools more slowly. Some chocolates do not seem to work well with the more aggressive cooling cycle, so that's why the operator is given a choice.

Yeah, it's a lot to learn, but as I said earlier, the machines are not artificially intelligent. They only do what the operator sets them to do.

This is a very important thing to keep in mind often forgotten.

I will suggest looking from another perspective, not necessarily better but different 

I had a look at a few tempering machines like Selmi or FBM Compatta.

Pretty.

However the control systems used for control of chocolate tempering were not ideal and not very responsive to any changes. Chocolate flow interruptions caused by using the "filling moulds" function were resulting in unstable chocolate temperature and loss of temper. The temperature control range was wide.

This may be fine in many situations but it may cause serious problems in others.

Another option for people looking at tempering chocolate on a small scale are small scale industrial tempering machines or lab tempering machines. New ones are expensive (but so are the Selmis of this world) but there are second hand machines on the market. Getting a machine with capacity bigger than required is not a bad idea. Normally they use PID controls for temperature with settable parameters which helps to adjust and control temperatures much closer to required setpoint.

Possibly something like the last machine on this page:

http://www.raymondtravel.co.uk/chocolate_temperers.htm

There are a few other dealers in second hand confectionery machines worldwide

Many times i've seen a 'story' develop, that's a romanticized narrative created that sounds plausible to the passers-by, but isn't grounded in science, and either doesn't have anything to back it up, or is caused by something else entirely, but not recognized as such.  This narrative can pick up momentum such that others begin doing it as well (there was a trend here for a while, for example, where people thought wearing magnetic bracelets would cure everything.  It's complete and utter bollocks, of course, but they still sold millions of them.)  

If you're storing your liquor to age it, there's not a great deal of benefit to doing so other than you don't need to run your production equipment as often, and logistically it may be easier.

If you're storing your chocolate to age it, there can be a benefit to doing so if it's stored in it's final form of consumption.  If you're storing bulk chocolate with the intent of further processing it, there's not much benefit to doing so.

A very large chocolate user (not, not producer, they use chocolate to make candies that actual industrial chocolate mfrs produce for them - but they use 10's of millions of lbs of chocolate/year), used to mandate that the bulk chocolate produced for them be aged for 90 days before they would use it.  Why?  Because at the time the owner of the company (it was a private company) - his mother believed that doing so was necessary for the chocolate to taste 'right'.  Crazy.  He allowed his mother - who's not part of the business - to drive immense supply chain complexity that had absolutely no bearing on how they used the chocolate.  Craziness that added zero value (in fact it added carrying costs) to their business.

Thanks Sebastian - that's really interesting given what we see a lot of the "larger" small-batch bean to bar makers do.

You are in the Dominican Republic? Rizek has three FBM machines that I am aware of, and are using them for their Kakaw brand. These are custom-built for them but I am not entirely sure of the extent of the customizations.

FBM machines are designed to be relatively easy to repair  - YMMV - once a problem has been diagnosed, and diagnosis is usually done via Skype w/FBM. Most of the parts can be sourced locally as the manufacturers FBM chooses tend to be global; overnight express freight is. If there is a compressor issue then you need a competent commercial refrigeration repair person to take care of that. Routine maintenance is always a good idea on any machine to stay ahead of potential problems.

No one other than FBM that I know of has offered up any bean-to-bar specific upgrades for their machines.

Batch tempering is an option. Many people in the bean-to-bar community use Savage melters for a variety of reasons, including some former FBM customers. The issues there were that the older machines they purchased were too small (mostly the tempering augers were too short) and when working with high viscosity chocolate it made finding and keeping temper really challenging. We've learned a lot about the variables working with high-viscosity chocolate over the past three years and are constantly improving the software and hardware to address the issues we run into.

The smallest FBM machine I'd recommend for bean-to-bar work is the new Compatta 15. Bigger working bowl, longer tempering auger (same length as in the Unica but smaller in overall diameter). Importantly, you can order the option to change the speed of the auger in 1% increments from the control panel, which is a game changer when it comes to nailing temper. 

FBM has just introduced a new 10kg batch tempering machine, the Quadro 10 . One of the main differences (apart from smaller size with respect to the Savage) is that it uses resistance wiring and a compressor to temper the chocolate instead of running water. This means no plumbing, no water bill, and no wasted water.

I don't think the batch tempering machines are more flexible or produce a better result than continuous tempering machines. They're just different and they impose a different set of operating thinking to use well. A continuous temperer, once you nail temper, will do a better job of keeping a chocolate in temper over the course of a day. Batch tempering machines tend to be slower to reach temper and the operator needs to be aware of changing conditions and manually make changes to maintain temper. (So make sure you have thermometer and hygrometer right by the machine.)

That said, there are always differences in approach and engineering decisions that require you to make a tradeoff. Is a Chocovision Z3 "better" than a Savage 50? Well, if you are not able to run the plumbing the Savage needs, then the Chocovision may be better. However, if you want greater throughput, Savage may be better. I don't know enough about your situation and chocolate to help you with that decision.

Thank you very much Clay for this detailed and thought provoking reply. 

I do produce from Beans (I don't do pastry using chocolate pallets) and use a Spectra grinder. I am not concerned by the look at all and am working on an Island where spare parts are harder/costlier/lengthier to get (but not impossible). So My first concern is definitely reliability of the hardware. Although I now have 3 plantations I buy from, I have noticed the beans are never completely the same in terms of fat percentage and therefore viscosity. So I need to be ready for the "heavy duty" mix that would require both a solid engine and ball bearings. Which brand(s) and or models do you believe best meet these 2 major criteria?

Finally, do you think batch tempering with a machine like the Savage, is more flexible and provides better result, for the bean to bar maker? In other words, that these archemedian screws are suited for standard conditions only?

Thank you again,

Always happy to help as I can ... it's not always a straightforward choice.

Please let me know if there are questions I did not answer completely or at all where you still need some clarification.