Forum Activity for @aly

Located in Modesto, CA.

I have 1 kilo and 2 kilo blocks of 70% Organic Costa Rican Southern zone couverture made with coconut nectar sugar.  www.samaritanxocolata.com  I can give you a wholesale price if you buy more than 2 kilos...contact me direct:  samaritanxocolata@gmail.com  

IBIE Show Special Offers

• 20% discount off list price
• Customs cleared (permanent entry)
• Only pay shipping from Las Vegas (plus re-crating fee)
• Ships from Las Vegas after the show (October 8-11)
• OR pick up from LVCC after the show
• ProXima and Maestria are 208~220V 60Hz 3-phase; Prima is  208~220V 60Hz single-phase
  

FBM Prima  - SOLD

FBM ProXima  - SOLD

NEW FBM Maestria60

• 60kg working bowl (was 45kg)
• Prearrangement to accept enrober belt and mold loader
• Craft Chocolate upgrade
• Pneumatic doser w/ auger speed controller

Contact Clay Gordon if you are interested.

Payment must be made in full before the end of the show.

Peter:

FBM has developed a response to your concerns about interrupting the flow of chocolate when depositing into molds.

In most tempering machines that use augers to transport the chocolate through the pipe the flow of chocolate is controlled by starting and stopping the auger. When this happens repeatedly over a short period of time the dwell time of the chocolate in the pipe changes, which can change temper. Plus, because the flow of chocolate is not constant the rate of melting in the bowl is not constant, leading to over-crystallization.

FBM offers, as an option on some of its machine, a pneumatically-controlled doser. When installed, a pneumatic valve (i.e., one that is operated by compressed air) is installed at the top of the tempering pipe. When closed (the default position) the chocolate is diverted down a separate pipe into the working bowl. When the dosing function is activated, the valve opens and the chocolate flows to the mold. After the desired time, the valve closes. In other words, the tempering auger never stops turning and the flow of chocolate is never interrupted. This design eliminates virtually of the drawbacks associated with controlling the flow of chocolate by starting and stopping the auger.

I don't disagree with you about getting a machine that is larger than absolutely necessary, because parameter that affects the consistency of temper include how rapidly the amount of chocolate in the bowl changes and how full the bowl is. It's much harder to maintain temper when the bowl is one-quarter full than when it is full and when you're emptying the bowl faster than the nominal tempering capacity. (FBM's rule of thumb is that the tempering capacity/hr of a machine is 3x the bowl capacity - assuming the bowl is kept full.) However, in my experience, people tend to under-buy capacity because of the expense involved. Having an outboard melter that automatically keeps the working bowl of the tempering machine is a great option to consider if high throughput is required.

FBM also offers three-zone tempering on some of its machines. This can help quite a bit in fine-tuning and maintaining the consistency of temper over the course of work shift.

Of course, the chocolate(s) being used also affect the ability of a machine to reach temper in the first place as well as maintain temper over time.

Not surprisingly, the location of the thermocouples used to measure the temperature come into play, and it is possible that a thermocouple is not properly adjusted within the flow of chocolate. This can lead to difficulty in reaching and maintaining temper.

And, finally, there are differences in software that can account for some of this. FBM has, on its larger machines, a "soft" and a "hard" tempering curve. This refers to how aggressive the chocolate is cooled. In the soft setting the chocolate is cooled more slowly. In the hard tempering setting the chocolate is cooled quickly until it comes to within a set number of degrees above the temper point, and then cools more slowly. Some chocolates do not seem to work well with the more aggressive cooling cycle, so that's why the operator is given a choice.

Yeah, it's a lot to learn, but as I said earlier, the machines are not artificially intelligent. They only do what the operator sets them to do.

This is a very important thing to keep in mind often forgotten.

I will suggest looking from another perspective, not necessarily better but different 

I had a look at a few tempering machines like Selmi or FBM Compatta.

Pretty.

However the control systems used for control of chocolate tempering were not ideal and not very responsive to any changes. Chocolate flow interruptions caused by using the "filling moulds" function were resulting in unstable chocolate temperature and loss of temper. The temperature control range was wide.

This may be fine in many situations but it may cause serious problems in others.

Another option for people looking at tempering chocolate on a small scale are small scale industrial tempering machines or lab tempering machines. New ones are expensive (but so are the Selmis of this world) but there are second hand machines on the market. Getting a machine with capacity bigger than required is not a bad idea. Normally they use PID controls for temperature with settable parameters which helps to adjust and control temperatures much closer to required setpoint.

Possibly something like the last machine on this page:

http://www.raymondtravel.co.uk/chocolate_temperers.htm

There are a few other dealers in second hand confectionery machines worldwide

Many times i've seen a 'story' develop, that's a romanticized narrative created that sounds plausible to the passers-by, but isn't grounded in science, and either doesn't have anything to back it up, or is caused by something else entirely, but not recognized as such.  This narrative can pick up momentum such that others begin doing it as well (there was a trend here for a while, for example, where people thought wearing magnetic bracelets would cure everything.  It's complete and utter bollocks, of course, but they still sold millions of them.)  

If you're storing your liquor to age it, there's not a great deal of benefit to doing so other than you don't need to run your production equipment as often, and logistically it may be easier.

If you're storing your chocolate to age it, there can be a benefit to doing so if it's stored in it's final form of consumption.  If you're storing bulk chocolate with the intent of further processing it, there's not much benefit to doing so.

A very large chocolate user (not, not producer, they use chocolate to make candies that actual industrial chocolate mfrs produce for them - but they use 10's of millions of lbs of chocolate/year), used to mandate that the bulk chocolate produced for them be aged for 90 days before they would use it.  Why?  Because at the time the owner of the company (it was a private company) - his mother believed that doing so was necessary for the chocolate to taste 'right'.  Crazy.  He allowed his mother - who's not part of the business - to drive immense supply chain complexity that had absolutely no bearing on how they used the chocolate.  Craziness that added zero value (in fact it added carrying costs) to their business.

Thanks Sebastian - that's really interesting given what we see a lot of the "larger" small-batch bean to bar makers do.

You are in the Dominican Republic? Rizek has three FBM machines that I am aware of, and are using them for their Kakaw brand. These are custom-built for them but I am not entirely sure of the extent of the customizations.

FBM machines are designed to be relatively easy to repair  - YMMV - once a problem has been diagnosed, and diagnosis is usually done via Skype w/FBM. Most of the parts can be sourced locally as the manufacturers FBM chooses tend to be global; overnight express freight is. If there is a compressor issue then you need a competent commercial refrigeration repair person to take care of that. Routine maintenance is always a good idea on any machine to stay ahead of potential problems.

No one other than FBM that I know of has offered up any bean-to-bar specific upgrades for their machines.

Batch tempering is an option. Many people in the bean-to-bar community use Savage melters for a variety of reasons, including some former FBM customers. The issues there were that the older machines they purchased were too small (mostly the tempering augers were too short) and when working with high viscosity chocolate it made finding and keeping temper really challenging. We've learned a lot about the variables working with high-viscosity chocolate over the past three years and are constantly improving the software and hardware to address the issues we run into.

The smallest FBM machine I'd recommend for bean-to-bar work is the new Compatta 15. Bigger working bowl, longer tempering auger (same length as in the Unica but smaller in overall diameter). Importantly, you can order the option to change the speed of the auger in 1% increments from the control panel, which is a game changer when it comes to nailing temper. 

FBM has just introduced a new 10kg batch tempering machine, the Quadro 10 . One of the main differences (apart from smaller size with respect to the Savage) is that it uses resistance wiring and a compressor to temper the chocolate instead of running water. This means no plumbing, no water bill, and no wasted water.

I don't think the batch tempering machines are more flexible or produce a better result than continuous tempering machines. They're just different and they impose a different set of operating thinking to use well. A continuous temperer, once you nail temper, will do a better job of keeping a chocolate in temper over the course of a day. Batch tempering machines tend to be slower to reach temper and the operator needs to be aware of changing conditions and manually make changes to maintain temper. (So make sure you have thermometer and hygrometer right by the machine.)

That said, there are always differences in approach and engineering decisions that require you to make a tradeoff. Is a Chocovision Z3 "better" than a Savage 50? Well, if you are not able to run the plumbing the Savage needs, then the Chocovision may be better. However, if you want greater throughput, Savage may be better. I don't know enough about your situation and chocolate to help you with that decision.

Thank you very much Clay for this detailed and thought provoking reply. 

I do produce from Beans (I don't do pastry using chocolate pallets) and use a Spectra grinder. I am not concerned by the look at all and am working on an Island where spare parts are harder/costlier/lengthier to get (but not impossible). So My first concern is definitely reliability of the hardware. Although I now have 3 plantations I buy from, I have noticed the beans are never completely the same in terms of fat percentage and therefore viscosity. So I need to be ready for the "heavy duty" mix that would require both a solid engine and ball bearings. Which brand(s) and or models do you believe best meet these 2 major criteria?

Finally, do you think batch tempering with a machine like the Savage, is more flexible and provides better result, for the bean to bar maker? In other words, that these archemedian screws are suited for standard conditions only?

Thank you again,

Always happy to help as I can ... it's not always a straightforward choice.

Please let me know if there are questions I did not answer completely or at all where you still need some clarification.

Alek -

There are no companies in the US making continuous tempering machines in the same class as the names you mention - Pomati, Selmi, FBM, Savy Goiseau, etc., and Gami, Bakon, Chocolate World ... names you did not mention.

If you can, I advise you to take a look inside the machines to see how they are made. What is the size of the tempering auger and pipe? How is the chocolate warmed and cooled? What safety features are in place to keep the operator from inadvertantly damaging the machine?

If you look at the evolution of the technology you will see that these all operate using a screw to transport chocolate from a working bowl where all the crystals are melted out through a cooled pipe to generate and mix the crystals. There is an originator of the technology and all of the follow-on brands are engineering copies to one extent or another. That's one of the reasons they all look so much alike.

However, it turns out the there are significant differences in things like the shape of the working bowl (e.g., deep and narrow versus wide and shallow), the auger and the pipe (e.g., the diameter of the pipe and the depth of the auger flights), and the position of the temperature sensors among other details, that make a difference with respect to overall tempering performance, including the ability to resist over-tempering over the course of the work day. In addition, some machines are heated and cooled with water jackets, some use heated resistance wire and recirculating cooling gas, and others use a combination of these techniques; and there are advantages and disadvantages to the various approaches. There are machines, from LCM and others, that use different approaches to tempering. The LCM approach, for example, makes it impossible (in their minds) to add a dosing option.

You should also pay close attention to the power of the motor driving the tempering auger (as well as the ratio of the gearbox) if you are going to be tempering two-ingredient (high viscosity) chocolate. I can tell you from experience that some motors are under-powered and will burn out faster than others. Two-ingredient chocolate also tends to be more abrasive than conventional couverture - especially that made in Indian wet-grinders - so that has an impact on the bearings and seals on the tempering motor, gearbox, and pipe.

Continuous tempering machines need to create and maintain a delicate balance of factors to temper and maintain temper. If you are making chocolate from beans, two different batches of the same recipe might not have identical tempering profiles. If they taste at all different and/or have a different mouth feel, the tempering will be different. This is one of the hardest points for some people to wrap their heads around. These machines are not artificially intelligent and they can only do what you tell them to do, and the vast majority of them are designed to work with commercial couverture that tend to be of a lower viscosity.

Other things to consider are the location the machine will be in. If it's in a kitchen that will never be seen by the public, how important is the sheet metal? Are you paying for bling or performance? Which is more important to you?

Another thing to consider is that some machines are made to order (so they can be customized) while most are built in advance and you can only buy stock configurations.

Finally, I have learned to pay attention to the following phrase, " You do not get what you don't pay for. "

I am looking for my first continuous tempering machine - around 12kg capacity - and would like to widen my options beyond FBM and Selmi which can be seen in many chocolate workshop in the Americas. What about Pomati? Since all the makers are Italians, how is customer service in the US? I found Savy Goiseau in France and others in Switzerland and Germany but they only have large machine. Any US alternative?

Thank you very much.

Price :US$ 2.000 + shipping

Batch Tempering machine from " Design & Realisation " as in https://www.dr.ca/tf20-chocolate-tempering-machine-20kg-44lbs.html . Capacity 44 Lbs (20Kg).

Comes with the Moulding wheel as in https://www.dr.ca/moulding-wheel-for-tf20-chocolate-tempering-machine.html

Some blemishes due to usage. Works perfectly. Full process can be seen atFaire son chocolat

The vibrating table comes with the Tempering machine.

Estimated shipping cost to the US $ 80

 Tempering whell.jpg - 164KB

Gap - yes.  Aging it untempered does almost nothing (there is some volatilization that's occuring), but again, the main driver is crystallization and melt.  If stored untempered, it's still crystallizing to some point, but the first thing a user will do is temper it, which will destroy any crystallization that may have happened to occur by happenstance.

LLY - i can't speak to what books you are reading, but i can say that just because you've read something, doesn't mean it's true.  Even if what you're reading is what i'm saying 8-)  Although, to be clear, i'm pretty confident that what i'm saying is true.  As in really, very confident.  

Flavor is an incredibly complex beast.  Flavor is due 100% to chemistry, yes.  Flavor change, however, is also chemistry, just a different kind.  Physical chemistry plays a huge part of how your body perceives flavor.

That is definately enough time to dry out the sugars.  Perhaps your scale isn't precise enough to capture the difference?  4% of 100g, for example, would be 4 grams of moisture loss (which is a TON of moisture for a refined sugar, by the way - i'd expect that number to be closer to 1, or less)

Hello. After two years of constant use, the stones in my large cocoatown grinder is very smooth. The smooth seems to contribute to more roller sticking and less smoothness in the chocolate. Has anyone re-roughened the surface of these stones? Any thoughts, comments?

I like how you think!

I have one - contact me at jim@unionmachinery.com thanks

Jim Greenberg

Please contact me if you have a flow wrapper available...on the small scale side.   Thank you!

Quick update.  I upgraded the amp to this 2x100 watt unit for $20.  It works really well!  I'm currently using a 24vdc 2amp power supply I had lying around and I can only turn it up to about 70% power before my power supply can't keep up but it still works great.  I would recommend at least a 5amp or ideally a 10amp power supply.

Link: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01FXE2TD8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Wow, thank you for your answer.
I agree to all what you mentioned above.
But, you allege that chocolate continue to crystallized month after and not couple of days, as I recall it contradict books that I read. (I know that there will be always 5%-20% of liquid cacoa butter depand if it's grow very close to the equator or not)
Secondly, the taste not evolve also from chemical reactions? it's hard to believe that the changes occurs solely because of the cacao butter solidification.

Based on the above Sebastian, is it fair to say that chocolate should be "aged" in a tempered & moulded state?

I see a lot of people ageing their chocolate straight from the grinding/refining/conching machine in a large tub in an untempered state. But based on the above, when they melt it all to temper and mould it, wouldn't that re-liquefy the ccb and restart some form of ageing process as it solidifies again in its now tempered/moulded state?

When you temper chocolate, you're converting some % of your liquid cocoa butter to solid cocoa butter crystals.  Much of it actually remains liquid, even after you've demoulded your chocolate.  It may look solid - and much of it is - however there's still a very significant portion of cocoa butter that remains fluid.  Over time, some of that liquid cocoa butter will continue to crystallize.  It never, ever, fully crystallizes (there will always be some portion of liquid cocoa butter - it will be much more than you think!).

Why is this important?  Because how fat melts is important to how flavor releases.  As you've already noted, the chocolate you demould today tastes different than that exact same chocolate 30 days from now.  Why?  It's predominately because of the above mentioned crystallization kinetics.  There's a couple of other reasons, to be sure, but that one has the largest impact.

All chocolate (that does not have inclusions in it, or added volatile flavors) - will have stabilized to the point where trained panelists can no longer detect a statistically relevant rate of change after about 28 days, when stored in a controlled, stable environment.  Physiochemically, the crystallization kinetics continue to evolve.  However, between 28 days and 35 days - there is no statistical difference detected.  At some point - very far out - there will again be a difference (related to hardness, as both the volume fraction of crystals is larger as well as the physical form of the crystals begins to change) - but we're talking years out.  If you've got an extreme or highly variable environment, everything above changes.  

For products that contain a lot of milk, depending on how it's processed, you can run into something called the glass transition (Tg) temperature, impacting lactose.  It essentially turns it from a crystal into an amorphous fluid.  This again changes how flavor is released (both due to how it dissolves, as well as how much moisture it's able to hold on to - this gets into specific physical chemistry that i won't go into here).

Also be aware that your packaging can impact flavor (either via diffusing aromas from the packaging into the chocolate itself, or by letting the aromatics of the chocolate escape if they don't have good barrier properties).

Viscosity is not just a matter of temperature (but that's part of it) - mostly a matter of fat percentage: the lower the fat content the higher the viscosity at any given temperature.

1200 RPM? 120, you mean. Why is 116F too hot?

Even with a chain drive it makes a lot of sense to schedule one weekend a month for maintenance. Take off the covers, look closely, vacuum out any dust that may have accumulated, etc. If you don't want to do it monthly, then do it before you enter into critical production periods. If the summer is slow and you start holiday production in September, schedule the maintenance for August so you can take care of it before it becomes an issue that interrupts production. Same for between Christmas and Valentine's Day, etc. It's only a few hours but it can save major frustration and downtime during key periods.

While many people fill the bowl above the axle, that's not a good idea, as it reduces the efficiency of the machine.

Sure, you are processing more product at the same time, but the extra processing time does not seem to be linear: overfilling by 10% increases processing time by greater than 10%.

Viscosity is what is going to affect the longevity of the grinder. The thicker the chocolate the greater the strain on the motor at any given level of pressure.

The belts are likely to go before the motor. Routine maintenance, including changing belts, is an important part of getting the most out of any grinder.

Hi,
First, thank you for your answer.
I didn't found and scientific facts about this phenomena in "Minifie, B.W.-Chocolate, Cocoa and Confectionery Science and Technology" for example.
The fact that is takes around 2 months is interesting..
I observed more pronounce aging in the white chocolate, probably because of the very high milk powder content.
Now, after you shed some light on the subject: I assume that the chemical reactions takes weeks to achieve equilibrium, the kinetics in the chocolate is slow because is solid state diffusion (except for the 5-20% of liquid cacao butter in room temperature)..
Hence, in high room temperature ~28C (in my house) the diffusion is faster and it takes around 10-14 days.

Interesting issue..

Y -

Most chocolate is made to be eaten more or less immediately, or manufacturers rely on the length of the supply chain (typically months between when a chocolate is made and it ends up on a shelf to be sold) to take care of aging. I think this is one of the reasons that there has not been a lot of research into what happens to the flavor of chocolate as it ages.

I was speaking with an expert on this a couple of weeks ago, and was told that it takes 6-8 weeks for most chocolates to achieve reasonable stability (defined as ~80% of expected flavor change). My own experience suggests that chocolates made from beans with lower levels of fermentations and/or lower roast levels requires more aging than chocolates made from  beans meeting the 80% well-fermented "standard" and that have been roasted harder.

I have not come across any research that explains what happens, but chemical changes are happening, and, as the chocolate continues to crystallize, the release of flavors is also affected.

The answer to the question, "How long?" can only be determined by experimentation using your recipes. I had a chocolate made with Mexican pimienta about 48 hours after it was made and then 10 days after it was made and the flavor of the pimienta was more pronounced, not less.

Great! Thanks for sharing!

You could add an informational note to the finished product, something like :

"Rithmically molded bubble free using Skrillex™ @ 50Hz" :P

Hi. I'm interested in the Perfect enrober, and the small panner. Please e-mail at chapelcove@outlook.com.

Tom, I'd like to see that as well, thanks.

Hi Curtis. I'm interested if still available. Email me please at chapelcove@outlook.com.

Hello,
There is no doubt that the chocolate continue to crystallized couple of days after moulding, hence, the texture will change, this is obvious.
The strongest taste changing is in my white chocolate, after two weeks the sweetness decreased.
I tried to put 1% of coffee in my white chocolate, couple of days after the taste was strong coffee with aftertaste. After 10 days the coffee taste is almost unnoticed.

So I wondering, how long do I need to keep my chocolate in order to evaluate his real taste?
And why it is all happen, is not 100% clear?

Thank's

what about dried fruits like goji berries?

Aimee -

There are very few  small tempering machines that accept enrobers.

Chocovision makes one that fits some of their machines, but from what I have heard, it does not work all that well. There is no blower (to remove excess chocolate) nor is there a de-tailer, or a proper take-off, so it's messy and slow. It also looks like it's a single curtain so there could be coverage issues. From what I can tell looking at the Chocovision web site they are working on a new one . Perhaps it will have engineering upgrades to address the issues early customers brought up.

Hilliard's offers a couple of size options for their " coaters " based on batch temperers. From the pictures on the site it's hard to tell how complete the base systems are but I don't see what I would consider to be required components for a fully-featured enrober on their smaller systems (e.g., blower, exit section, de-tailer, take-off). That said - there are a lot of them in production so people must like them.

There are a number of manufacturers of continuous tempering machines - you may know names like Selmi and Pomati. I work with one of them (FBM) and to my knowledge FBM is the only company that offers a complete enrobing system on a small continuous temperer - the Prima . 

I say small in relative terms. The Prima has a 10kg (~22lb) working bowl and can temper up to 30kg (~65lbs) of chocolate per hour. The belt is 18cm (about 7") wide. When you think about it, if you need to put 500 pieces per hour (about eight pieces per minute) through the machine and each piece requires 10gr of chocolate to cover it completely, then you only need 5kg of chocolate per hour. Other companies that make continuous tempering machines do not offer enrober belts on machines with bowl capacities of less than 25kg (75kg/hr throughput).

The enrober FBM offers is complete. It comes in two parts, a working section that is comprised of the entry section, bottomer (sometimes called a pre-bottomer), double-curtain veil, net beater, blower, de-tailer rod; and a separate take-off section.

It is not inexpensive, but as people are probably tired of hearing me say, "You don't get what you don't pay for." If you are interested I can introduce you to a dealer who can price one for you.

For sale :

80gr chocolate mould - New, still in bag - classic style - 140 pieces @ 500USD

40gr chocolate mould - Used - contemporary style - 240 pieces @ 780 USD

If you take both, I will add 40 pieces of praline moulds for free

The items are located in Thailand.

Prices exclude shipping and taxes.

Contact at: tiborbaan@yahoo.com

 40gr mould.jpg - 118KB

Please contact at: tiborbaan@yahoo.com

Please contact at: tiborbaan@yahoo.com

Gami T260 continuous tempering machine for sale due to closing business.

The equipment is located in Thailand.

Price: 4500 USD excluding shipping and taxes

 Gami T260 temperer.jpg - 95KB

For Sale 2 sets of"Macintyre" style conch refiners, due to closing business. They are Chinese made.

Capacity: 40L

The equipment is located in Thailand.

Price for the two: 7,000 USD excluding shipping and taxes.

 Refiner conches.jpg - 90KB

Ah, that makes sense, thanks.

I'm shocked reading papers from 70 years ago that are asking the same questions as I had visiting processing centres last week - and not finding much that's published since or that would explain why the state of the art hasn't visibly changed much.

Besides Zoi's papers suggested by Clay, are there other starting points to our modern understanding of what happens in fermentation?