Forum Activity for @Stu Jordan

Hello!

It is finally that time - we have found a 300sqm site for our new factory/offices/cafe/showroom.

Next step - buy tempering machines. And getting them to New Zealand (for those geographically challenged, that's next to Australia. If you don't know where Australia is, you are probably a little too geographically challenged

I am so torn about what to buy. I want to have two machines, so I do not need to change out to mix between milk & dark. And to keep production in the event one needs servicing. But by buying 2, I will not be able to afford a Selmi.

I have considered 2 x Moldart machines as these are fairly reasonable in price.

I have heard a lot of people talk about Prefect machines, but haven't priced/examined in detail, but this could be an option.

Essentially, I don't want to spend more than $15,000 US - what would you do with that budget? I am looking for either continuous automatic tempering or a semi-automatic wheel machine. Must have vibrating table. Size - 25kg capacity would be the ideal size.

Lastly, anyone used Desserthouse? They are offering 40% off but I have never heard of them.

Thanks

Stu

If you are still tempering by hand, your chocolate will stay at your working temperature longer the larger the volume of chocolate you are working with. Reheat as needed as already suggested in the other post. There is no special trick - once you know how to temper, as you already do, it is pretty much all the same no matter how much chocolate you are working with.

Hi Nigel,

It sounds like your business is gorwing andthat's fantastic. What youneed in this case is a tempering machine. You just need to feed the machine the chocolate you use, set the right temperatures and you'll get excellent tempered chocolate. Plus think about all the time saved on tempering, re-tempering,cleaning...

Omar

Reheat as often as necessary with a heat gun, or add warm untempered chocolate. As long as you don't exceed the working temperature your chocolate will stay in temper.

I have only ever tempered small quantities for small batches of chocolate and this has been very successful and now need to produce larger batches - can anyone advise how to keep my tempered chocolate "in temper" so I can temper larger quantities and use throughout the day?

Many thanks

Nigel

For those of you interested, Adam finished his recipe tweaking and did a post on his blog back in Jan

http://www.parispatisseries.com/2012/01/18/parisian-hot-chocolate-recipe-chocolat-chaud/

Thanks Felipe, so the concept is as aflavouring agent but also for texture? I assume you would get the lumps at the bottom or does it floatkind of like a marshmallow in hot chocolate concept?Oh and how much would one typically add to say a 250ml mug of hot chocolate? And how do you make your hot chocolate, with milk or water?

Tom, the cheese is similar to mozarella. They call it 'queso campesino' or country/peasant cheese. There are some videos on youtube of the process to make it.

Some people use mozarella, it's a matter of personal choice. The cheese is cut into cubes and put into the cup to heat up before drinking. The queso campesino retains its structure and becomes chewy, which is really nice. I guess a more neutral flavor is preferable to more mature cheeses.

I have never heard of this before but it is something I would be interested in trying. So what is 'white cheese', could you liken it to a type? Is it a soft salty cheese like ricotta or something more mature, less salty like fetta?

Chirag, thanks for resurrecting this thread, I had missed it earlier.

I can say that the hot chocolate we drink in Colombia is very popular with a favorite being the addition of white cheese, which melts in the chocolate and also releases some slightly sour milk fat. Very good. Not sure if it is common elsewhere.I do remember friends from the UK who were shocked and refused to put cheese in their hot chocolate.

Brad:

i hope youdon'tmind me asking, but when u say garam masala, what combination of spices are u refering to?

here in India we have 28 states and each one has their own blend of garam masala.

Try this recipe:

1 oz pure liquor / unsweetened chocolate (the best you can buy)

3 oz regular granulated sugar

8 oz homogonized milk

2 tsp cornstarch

Mix the cornstarch with the sugar.

shave the liquor

bring the milk to a boil

Remove the milk from the heat and add the sugar and liquor and whisk until thick and creamy.

If you want it sweeter, add more sugar. If you want it darker add more liquor. If you want it thinner use less cornstarch, and if you want it thicker, add just a wee bit more.

Let me know how that works for you.

Then you can experiment with various combinationsof the following:

1/2 tsp cinnamon

3/4 tsp chinese 5 spice powder

1/8 tsp cloves

1/2 tsp allspice and cayenne pepper

3/4 tsp garam masala & 1 tsp vanilla (awesome earthy woodsy flavour)

Hope that helps. Let me know how that works for you.

Brad.

Oh... and Iprefer milk chocolate over dark chocolate too! But, shhhhhh! Don't tell anyone!

Hey Adam and Brad,

I know this might sound terrible on such a chocolate forum but I love milk chocolate. Especially cadburys milk drinking chocolate (Chocolaty, milky and sweet). My wife and I have tried to make a hot milk chocolate drink at home a million times using all sorts of recipes we found on the internet but nothing comes close. We want to try to make it from base ingredients. We've tried melting dark chocolate and mixing with dried milk powder and cocoa butter, then putting it all in a pot with some milk. Tastes ok but is still too bitter. Any suggestions on how tomake a good milk hot chocolate without using cocoa powder?

cheers

orin

Hi, Brad. Thanks so much for your feedback. Going through your thoughts in order

1. I agree it could sound pretentious, but its not as evil as it at first looks. My first impulse with the recipe was just take a pre-established blend like Cluizels 72% and sweeten it with a little milk chocolate. But just using even that one pre-blended bar, Id already have South American, African and Javan single origins, as well as vanilla, in the mix. My final product is basically the exact same idea 3 single origins and a little vanilla but with two other single origins in very small proportions to the others, to help round out some of the tones. That said, the Porcelana is in the greatest supply, so its pretty obvious. I just didnt want to go the pure single origin route, as thats where I think the Parisian chefs I referenced seemed to stop.But Ill see if I can rebalance things enough that I can lop off the Chuao, which is what I use in the smallest supply.
2. Im using bars, as Im doing it European/French/Parisian style. Sugar is already incorporated into the tablettes used + the recipe can be more easily sourced and duplicated by purchasing the same bars. If only people would follow any recipe I put out, I would just start with raw cacao and hand-mill it like the Mayans ;)
3. Ive considered the use of cornstarch, but Im trying to stick to the French style and not use it. Going full-on authentic with the ancient recipe, I think wed have to use cornmeal. But Im not entirely opposed to extracting the starch from fresh corn, via more modern methods. Perhaps.

Thanks again for your thoughts. - Adam

Couple of questions:

1. Why create such a complex blend? Without coming across as a jerk, to me the blend sounds pretentious. As soon as you add milk and various spices to it, 99% of the population won't notice the difference. In fact I would hazard a guess that not even the most refined chocolate pallates in the world will be able to pick out the nuancesin the various bars you are using. This is the same philosophy as taking an $80 bottle of shiraz and using it in a stew. It's a waste, as other flavours overpower the delicate nuances in the wine, just as other flavours in your drink (and the milk too) overpower the nuancespresent in each ofthe chocolates you are blending together.

2. Why are you using chocolate? You don't have near the control you would if you used liquor.

3. Traditional drinking chocolate is thickened with corn starch. You can create a very rich, creamy drink without all the fat by using 3.25% homogonized milk and cornstarch. There's enough fat already in the chocolate / liquor. No need to add more in the form of animal fat. At the same time you can boast to your customers that you are taking them closer to the origin of chocolate than the guy next door.

My experience for what it's worth, and we've been written up all over Canada for the drinking chocolate we offer.

Cheers

Brad

Hey Adam,

I Never looked at the science behind hot chocolate making like yourself, thanks for the detailed input.I drink my Chocolat chaud like the mayans. I like to include Cinnamon and Cayenne Pepper in mine. I do not see how the taste gets harsh when you infuse it in milk or cream, you just need the right amount of spices.

Cheers,

Omar

I recently returned from 6 months in Paris, spending a great deal of time with the chocolate and pastry kings. Whether I was talking with Jacques Genin about his work, nudging Pierre Cluizel to try some new ideas at his new chocolate concept store, or just enjoying some Jean-Paul Hvin pieces, the one thing in the back of my mind was . . . their hot chocolate.

They each do great things with their chocolat chaud, but Im possessed with the idea that they havent spent enough time on decadent blends and the science behind what goes into the cup. So Im hoping The Chocolate Life brain trust can offer some insights. Any thoughts you have on the below would be greatly appreciated!

Preface: Im using a blend of bars, in non-equal proportions, as the basis for the hot chocolate Domori Porelana, Amedei Grenada, Cluizel Maralumi Lait, Pralus Ghana, and Bonnat Chuao

1. Ive nailed down the by-weight ratio of liquids to chocolate to about 2:1. While most recipes use a blend of milk and cream, Im obviously using such pricey bars that I want to incorporate as little perceptible milk fat/protein as possible. So, within the liquids, Im using 3 parts whole milk to 1 part water. With constant agitation, I can get the serving temp to about 130 degrees before the emulsion starts to break down and cacao solids come out a bit. Id like to use even less milk and more water, but then the emulsion breaks at lower temps. Any tricks/advice?
2. Regardless of the milk quantity, Im trying to be very sensitive to the milks ultimate temperature. Ive been using the approach baristas take, heating the milk to around 140-145 as a way to exploit the conversion of alpha to beta lactase, helping create a slightly sweeter milk component. Im not seeing any reason to scald the milk, as Im not doing a ganache, and the hydrogen sulfide produced by the breakdown of lactoglobulin (at around 172 degrees) really wrecks the flavor of the end product. Any thoughts or considerations?
3. The only additive flavor Im introducing is vanilla. Ive found that, by doing a 24-hour cold infusion of only 2 grams of a bean in milk, I can flavor 600ml of the end product. I was hoping to weave in some cinnamon, preferably Ceylon, but its proving too harsh at any concentration. Perhaps I should try simply infusing the cinnamon into water, as a way to extract some different nuances. Thoughts or suggestions?
4. Do any of you have any other too-deeply-thought-out hot chocolate recipes that might assist in my little project here? Despite a lot of research, Im not finding any other recipes that get serious about blends, temperatures, and process.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have. - Adam / Paris Ptisseries

Interesting. I didn't realized that was what Dutched meant.

Thanks Ice

Sounds likethe cacaomay have been dutched (alkalised) with either sodium or potassium carbonate to help it dissolve in water.

Kerry

This is a brilliant explanation and addresses the specific taste. The first test I will do is to change the Cacao powder!

Thank you, I'll keep you posted.

John

That's a great plan, Clay.

Will let you know how it goes...

If it is developing a soapy taste then saponification of either the cocoa butter and/or coconut oil is likely at fault. A metallic alkali reacts with a fat or oil to form soap.

Sunfood claims that it's cocoa is 'lower acid' than other cocoa - meaning higher pH and also high in magnesium, therefore I believe making it a 'metallic alkali'.

I'm uncertain if lowering the pH in some way may prevent this from happening, perhaps acidifying your agave in some way.

Certainly, free water in the agave syrup (or any other ingredient) is a contributor.

One way to test this is to make the exact same recipe but leave out the agave. If, in a week, you don't get the taste change you know that the water in the agave is encouraging the growth of something. You can then try an alternative form of sweetener (e.g., coconut palm sugar).

If you do get the taste change, make the recipe removing one ingredient at a time until the taste change does not happen. Now you know what ingredient is reacting with the water in the agave and you can find a substitute.

It may be that the cocoa powder/mass you are using has mold or other spores in it. These are much harder to control than in "cooked" chocolate because of the low temperature processing. You have to be much cleaner working, too.

'Morning Clay,

It's hard to describe. Not moldy, but soapy tasting, almost like it's heading towards rancid...

It has been suggested that maybe it's the water content in the Agave.

Any suggestions are appreciated

Thanks

John

John:

When the chocolate "goes off" what does that mean? Does it start to taste rancid? Is mold growing? What's happening?

Hello
I am making raw chocolate, but having difficulty making it last more than a week or 10 days

I've read through these posts looking for advice. But I am not making it from the bean

I mostly use Sunfoods Raw Cacao Powder/ Mesquite/ Soy Lecithin / Vanilla... sometimes Spirulina
Mix it up and add Cacao Butter / Coconut Oil / Agave until I get a paste
I set it in the fridge and it gets hard (more like a brownie consistency left out)
but after a week it starts going a little off...

I have read the water content in Agave ma make it go bad...?

So i have even done experiments with coconut crystals to sweeten it, so the only binding liquid is the butter, but then the chocolate is too brittle. I like the slightly maleable (almosy brownie like consistency.

How would I go about making this last longer?
Should I use more cacao butter ?
Is there some trick to making it shelf stable?

Thanks so much, in advance
John

Thank you Tom. We did an initial gritty grind in the DR and it has aged for 4 months now. I didn't know if I should age it after I conch it, before the temper and mold. The paste I am using is pretty rugged. I did buy 100 pounds of fermented beans from a farmers cooperative and a women's cooperative roasted the beans over wood and then hand cracked and winnnowed the beans before it was put through a hand grinder. The 12 hour conch seems to work. Thank you again.

I age it once it has been totally finished and moulded into bars. Most dramatic changes in the chocolate taste occur in a period of three weeks after that, from then it seems reasonably stable (I mould pretty much straight after I finish grinding it). This is just my experience from making and eating a serious amount of chocolate in the last 4-5 years. As for conching, you just have to use your taste, I don't ever conch overly long, I like a bright chocolate. Over conching is a sin, it flattens and mutes the chocolate. Only with a very acidic chocolate like madagascar would I conch in the true sense. It takes about 12 h for a 1 kg batch to grind down to sufficient particle size in my Spectra 10, usually I wouldn't do anything more to the chocolate after that. But with a madagascar I would take the lid off and 'conch' (grind further) for about another 6 h, this also depends on ambient temperature also.

The best way to learn is just to make heaps of chocolate and try different things all the time, try lots of different origins too. Importantly taste it all the time at all stages and keep notes.

Looking for a little advice on how to better work with the chocolate as I go through the process of learning. I purchased a Cocoa Town melanger and have made about 10 - 2 lb. batches in the last month. I am using the balls of paste we made in the Dominican Republic last summer.

I break up the balls using a meat grinder and soften the pieces on a double boiler before I put in in the melanger. I have been adding about 2 cups of pure cane sugar and am testing 2 1/2 cups on my current batch. The conch time has ranged from 4 - 8 hours and one 20 hours conch. Clay warned me about over conching and the gleam appears after about 4 hours.

When I take it about I generally let it harden at room temperature and store in the refrigerator until I temper it. When I visited Mast Brothers they told me they age their chocolate for a month and I read in Maricel Presilla about chocolate being aged for more than three months. AT WHAT POINT DO YOU AGE IT? After the conch and what are the ideal temperatures to store it?

When I took samples of the 7 hr conch to the chocolate show in NYC, it is obvious it is missing something, especially at the end. Are the flavor notes primarily determined at the bean selection, fermentation and roasting processes? How much influence do I have with the conch machine? Or am I mostly working on texture and appearance at this point.

I also lose probably 10 -15% (a guess) transferring it between the machine to a bowl and then during tempering to the molds.

I take it to school (I am a teacher) and share it with the students and get a lot of good feedback. I talk about making chocolate with kids at every opportunity. And they love it.

I also made my first batch of ganche and made some truffle balls rolled in a variety of nuts and roasted quinoa works well. Tried a little batch with reduced orange juice. Not the same as those I purchase around NYC but it is a start.

We just bought a temper and we need to know where to buy bilk block milk chocolate for tempering. Please let us know.

Thanks

Gary

I'm not sure what causes it, but I get it on one of my cocoatown ultras, too.

While running the last two batches in the Spectra 11 there is a good amount of static electricity building on the bowl. This is new. I can't pin down the cause for this. I've run through every variable I can think of with temp, weather, humidity, etc. I'm wondering if this is an early warning sign that something is happening with the Spectra. There is enough static electricity building that it's getting my attention like never before. I'm starting to know what a mosquito feels like at the bug zapper. Was curious if anyone else experienced this and could offer up the shocking truth.

Cheers! Scott

I guess I could see it used as a base or used in a truffle, or other concoction. I did finish the bar and I have to admit I enjoyed it. It wasn't my favorite chocolate bar, but it was worth a try.

How do you guys feel about the Taza 80% bar?

I bought a bar over the weekend and have made a pretty nice dent into it. But I don't know yet how I feel about it. I love all the flavors that this bar has, but not sure about the texture. Over all, I want to say I love it.... but not sure that I can.

Anyone else have thoughts on this bar?

Hi Tom

Thanks for the advice- I have them on my list. Do you know anyone that has dealt with this company before? If so, any feedback?

I am looking into Heritage chocolates- are you familiar with them?

Cheers

Natan

Corvina is the Melbourne company I assume? Apparently there is one in the Gold Coast but I forget the name, perhaps you can use this geographic area to locate it?

Hi all,

I am currently looking for a reliable chocolate manufacturer to produce a quality 50g chocolate bar (to my own specific design). There seem to be very few manufacturers in Sydney who have the capacity to do so.

I know there is a larger chocolate making community in Melbourne- I will work with these if I have to.

Does anyone know a manufacturer in Sydney (does not have to be bean to bar)??

Thanks

Natan

No, not on these.

Are you using colored cocoa butter?

Did some more experimentation today and actually pre heated my molds, the marks went away so I guess these are water spots. That opens another issue for me-If i can't decorate it I won't make it. How do I decorate it and pre-heat it at the same time?