Forum Activity for @Sebastian

Thanks Kit - I know i say things tongue in cheek sometimes, the intent isn't to be jarring. I've only ever seen one 'raw' chocolate being sold (in NYC), so i'm left with the impression there's not a huge demand for it, but then it's hard to square that with all the requests. Would love to hear more about they 'whys' of the requests that come in and what is driving them. Your request appears to be driven more out of a desire to somehow differentiate the product, and not necessarily demand or belief based i think..

Sebastion..this is a good question. And now, being exposed to this forum I am asking myself the same questions. I am a business woman. I love chocolate. I started making chocolate when I owned a store, and decided to continue the process, though, quite honestly I do not know a lot about it, so I am learning. I am wondering if it is marketed this way (including how it is marketed to me to buy in bulk) as something unique and unlike any other chocolate out there. I am appreciating the insight, experience and wisdom this forum has around this topic. It is a bit jarring for me, but I am listening. Thank you.

I'd love to understand what the draw is behind the 'raw chocolate' movement. Every 2 months or so for years a handful of the exact same questions pop up. While i'm not going to spend any more time answering them again, i do wonder why the question arises. Is there a movement, in general, of low heat processed foods? Why? Is there a belief that life is just too long?

Or is it specific to cocoa? If so, why? What's the attraction/belief centered around? I can't seem to parse that out of any of the questions...

Little help?

I am in complete agreement with Brad here. Unless the process of making chocolate starting from the tree (what is known in the industry as tree-to-bar chocolate) is very tightly controlled from the beginning through the end you will seriously risk contamination. And even then you still might have problems. I've spoken with several chocolate makers on Hawaii and they pulled the use of or selling the fermented but unroasted cacao beans - even with their own stringent controls due to the possible contamination. Remember, the first stages of processing cacao beans happens in the tropics where there is always something in the air and the possibility of contamination. To reduce this possibility, during the ferment having high temperatures - a constant 120f and higher for several days will kill most pathogens. But, you've still got the drying process and the shipping process - contamination can happen (hot tropics).

If you choose to try and make chocolate from these fermented beans you still need to winnow and grind them to a fine particulate matter - the grinding produces heat, which you want in any case as this facilitates the cocoa butter melt which will expedite this.

And Brad is also right that cocoa powder is produced by hydraulic press - this also produces heat.

There are a couple of companies who do not chemically deodorize their cocoa butter, or they use a steam process but they are small companies and as far as I know, don't sell the cocoa butter.

I will say that the fermentation begins the process of producing the compounds that produce the chocolate flavor, this continues with the drying. Roasting is a big part of producing flavors which continues through the grinding and conching. All these steps contribute to a full rounded chocolate flavor. Steps can be omitted but only to the detriment of the final flavor.

How are you planning on grinding the cocoa nibs?

Pixie;

If you're making chocolate with cocoa powder, it's not raw chocolate. Most cocoa powder is a by-product of making cocoa butter, and is created by roasting and crushing the cocoa beans, then putting them through intense pressure to "press" out the butter.

Most cocoa powder is also alkalized using a chemical called Potassium Carbonate.

Cocoa powder is literally the farthest from "raw" that a person can get in the industry, as it's the most heavily processed.

Having said that, you might want to revisit your use of the word "raw". Simply put: what you make isn't raw.

Brad

Kia ora Kat,

I just came accross your letter in the forum and was wondering how you got on with your business. I also make raw choc in Nz (using butter and powder) but in the process of changing from bean to bar. Did you do further reshearch on the risk of using 'unroasted' beans? Any feedback would be most appriated..........love pixie

Without any heat application, the fermenting bean pile will exceed 114F (temp taken from middle of pile) on its own from the microbial activities.

Simply put, i don't believe it. They may not be exposing it to those temperatures (however, it's the temperature of a loading truck, so even then...) - it doesn't mean someone else isn't, and how in the world would they know. I'm a huge skeptic.

http://www.therawchocolatecompany.com/

This site claims all of their chocolate is raw and uncooked at that their chocolate never reaches temps above 114F.

So are they just using some type of agent to wash/clean their cacao before they make their chocolate? or are they selling chocolate death?

99.99% of chocolate companies in the world don't make chocolate. They simply resell something that they buy. It's simply misinformation that they have been provided and trust. Somebody lied to the reseller. For example, a spice shop in my neighborhood had "raw" nibs for sale. I took them 4 different varieties of REAL unroasted nibs, and as a result, they pulled the "raw" nibs off the shelf. Why? because the nibs they were told were raw, were actually lightly roasted and had a very delicate, mild chocolate flavour - similar to the mild chocolate flavour I can create in my shop when I mildly roast cocoa too.

Think about this for a second: If the FDA and the CFIA stipulate the cocoa is a 100% guaranteed contaminated commodity, do you actually think they would allow someone to sell it as a food product in it's raw state without going through some type of heat sterilization process first??? (which incidentally nullifies any "raw" claims they should be able to make).

Brad

Thank you! So what is the deal with chocolate companies that say they are making raw chocolate?

I agree with Brad and i can tell you that after have tasted some raw cocoa beans out of excitement for our first shipment, i had to spend 2 weeks in bed with high fever, vomit, stomach problem and 2 kind of antibiotic. Lost 6 kg and the doctor wasn't sure what caused!

So roast the beans! you will gain on flavor and uniqueness of your own chocolate.

Thank you for your response Brad.

Cocoa beans don't taste like chocolate until they are roasted. Before then, they are very acidic and unpleasant.

On top of that, if you make chocolate with raw cocoa beans, you are playing russian roulette with the chances of killing someone from ecoli or salmonella. Remember: Cocoa beans are an agricultural product fermented and driedon the ground of a third world country. If you wouldn't drink the water from the tap there, why on earth would you eat something right off the ground?

Cheers

Brad

And also, is it ok to just use the fermented bean (without it being roasted)-I assume it is a special process the bean undergoes?

Hello chocolate community. I am going to be purchasing bulk fermented cacao beans for my chocolate business. I have been buying the butter and powder separate, but it is not cost effective as my company grows. If I were to buy the fermented bean what exactly would I need for equipment? I would not be roasting them, we are selling "raw" chocolate- what I know is really fermented chocolate. Thank you for any advice here!

We temper the chocolate, pour into molds, and let harden. I am needing to know what equipment is needed for the bean-bar process.

Wow! 1950 euro!! i paid 600 by FBM.... and it look the same.

I use this injection system (we call it shower) to make our 100gr bars, so it makes 3 bars in one shot.

as soon we can effort a tunnel we can use "the shower" to make callets automatically.

Anyway, going back to the original point of discussion from Kat:

see how much production you do and forecast what could be the next step and buy what you need towards that forecast. Otherwise you will spend $$$ and soon you will be short in production again. That's why we bought the "shower" with our tempering machine, we believe that soon will pay off.....

Ciao

Nino

just giving an alternative idea not saying Kat should purchase just showing what is available or is that not what we do on this website???

So to use this plate (1950 Euro) she also needs a 12,000 Euro Selmi... yes that's by far the CHEAPEST solution anyone has come up with.

Kat

Look here http://www.selmi-chocolate.it/eng/plate/injection.html#techdata

Regards

Just FYI, I can do ~100 bars per hour or more using the previously mentioned syringe and a cheap dental vibrator. It's really very convenient because you only have to use one device to extract, measure and pour your chocolate.

For example, your 2.5 oz bars would translate to ~71 grams or just about 55cc (using the formula I gave you above) of chocolate.

Everyone else seems very fond of the $500 (funnel) or $10,000 (wheel machine) solutions, well here I am giving you a $5 one...

Though I would much rather be using one of these machines!

Thank you Alan! Right now, because I doing things out of my home, I am doing the old school double boiler, and then using a ladle to put it into a measuring cup to pour. I am hoping to find a pourer that will measure out exactly 2.5 oz so I do not have to eye-ball the exact amount.

Good Morning Kat

What piece of equipment are you currently taking your chocolate from?

Is a type of melting vessel with a turning wheel on, because you can have a pouring spout on these that will fill your moulds and then you can put the mould onto a vibrating table to level the chocolate, this would probably be easier, i have attached a photo of a machine that i am talking about.

We've tried the cheap funnel and there is just not enough back pressure for chocolate. YMMV.

What about a metered funnel? Chocolate World has one that is available from Tomric in the US.

brian

A 100cc syringe works perfectly. Chocolate has a density of ~1.27 grams/cc so it's very easy to measure out your bars. Look for them in vet supplies.

simply put the mould on top of a scale (that most probably you have...) and just add till right measure.

Chocolate change its density depending on the temperature and always a good layer stay attached to the vessel.

the colder it gets the thicker it becomes.

We do our 1 kg blocks in this way and we use to do the bars with the same system..

Then we bought a continuos tempering machine with pneumatic valve that measures on the dot... and we smile ever since!

I hand pour my chocolates into 2.5oz bars. I use regular plastic molds. Does anyone have a source of a piece of equipment that measures oz and would make my life easier to not have to then scrape the bars after they harden? And create a more uniform bar?

Interesting post here

http://www.thequenelle.com/2009/10/cappuccino-chocolate-bar-or-usin...

Chef Migoya uses coffee beans to produce "liquor" and adds sugar and cocoa butter to make chocolate. The post is interesting as is the Comments section which generated some interesing questions and answers.

Edited to add: to incorporate coffee in my chocolate confections, I put 100g coffee beans in 600g of white chocolate (at 45 C), cover the bowland keep the bowl at 45 C (either in a heat cabinet or put your bowl inside a melting tank heated to ~55 C. Leave for 4-5 hours and then strain out the beans. The white chocolate has a strong coffee taste and smell.

2-5% coffee ground into whatever chocolate you are making makes a fantastic mocha bar of chocolate. I reccommend it with a really fruity chocolate like Madagascar or Australian with a little milk powderit is by far the prefered bar that I make and I make a lot of different and crazy stuff. I find it grinds down so it is not noticable in the chocolate - smooth as and at this level there is no problem with cross contamination of chocolate batches. I make this type of chocolate a lot. Ghirardelli makes a similar type of bar to this. Do it!

I saw a bar at Fancy Food Show a couple years ago, made somewhere in PA, he used ground coffee, sugar, and cocoa butter, processed it like you would make chocolate, into a fine paste, then formed it into bars. Very nice work.

I agree I wouldn't grind it in there, it's going to create a grain you're customers are going to notice. The few thoughts which flit by my mind is to either make it into a simple syrup (make extra strength coffee, boil it down to 1/2 then make a normal simple syrup, and boil away more of the water--this would take some trial and error) for addition or take the simple syrup and boil it down a bit more then let dry, break it back into the sugars and you've got a coffee flavored sugar.

Or you can do like Brad mentioned and do it through the confections. We do an espresso truffle where we've extracted the espresso into the cream before creating the ganache.

My suggestion would be to figure out a way to use the coffee in your confections, and not grind it at all into your chocolate. Coffee is a very strong flavour, which could very easily find its way into other chocolate you make regardless of how much you think you've cleaned out your grinder.

Hello !

I have just found someone who roasts freshly coffee and I have some ideas to make chocolate with this coffee. Can I put the coffee in the grinder with sugar and other ingredients ? How do you make it ?

The problem is that I have just one grinder and I make other types of chocolate too..

Thank you in advance for your help !

Chris:

There is now a distributor for Pomati in the USA - Qzina. They're national but their HQ is in Southern California. I suggest you connect with them directly re: parts.

Hi Sam,

Let me reply to the two messages together:

1) I suggested sourcing from local manufacturers around you as said you were unable to locate parts and the only option you had was going to Italy. There should not be any need to go there since Pomati is helpful. Original parts is the preferred option always.

2) There is nothing wrong with the machine, in my case the customer took a sharp object like a screw driver and poked it in the area where the melted chocolate is pushed into the machine. They intended to push out the solid chocolate mass that was rotting in the tube but ended up puncturing a hole in the tubing system of the machine.

Hope this helps you. Good luck.

Hello Ankur,

Which Tempering machine do you suggest is better when compared FBM , Semi or Pomati in 10 -15kg range ?

I am finding this strange

"The only other option, is to approach local manufacturers / suppliers around you for a similar part. It goes without saying that the part would need to be as close to the original as possible."

Why not to use original parts from the company.

Hi!

Is there anything wrong with the machine? Can you please share your experience with Pomati Machine?

Hi Chris,

I was in touch with Pomati (probably more than a year ago), with regards to repairs needed on a machine they had sold to a customer in India (Bangalore city, I am in Mumbai). They were more than happy to guide me and send over necessary parts (at the customers expense in this case as they were the ones who messed it up). Have you tried doing the same.

The only other option, is to approach local manufacturers / suppliers around you for a similar part. It goes without saying that the part would need to be as close to the original as possible.

All the best in any case.

I am unable to locate parts for this machine other than going to Italy.

I understand depreciation, how to calculate, the many different ways of calculating, and how it applies to your; balance sheet, income statement, free cash flows, etc. I am just curious which method people are using.