Forum Activity for @Panod

Iencountered with something very weird during conching (Is it?). I roast this set of beans, and it smells so nice, during the first 3 hours I was able to pull off all of the acids, and I added in refined sugar, at that time I really love the taste, but everything is coarse, so I let it conch over night, the next morning the chocolate was smooth but with astringent taste and smell. Where does it came from? But during my first 3 hours of conching there was no sign of acid or astringent taste or smell at all. How can I fix this problem?

Thank you for all of your replies

Hi Omar,

you are welcome! We haven't tried any one else, so it is difficult to say if they are better or worst than others.

It just Takes soo long to get some information, price list and everything organized.

MAKE SURE that before importing you have all the documentation required by your country to import goods.

They will not help yo with it. If you order a product that needs special permit (eg: milk powder, sugar) they will not tell you that and you will be stuck at custom with no way to recover your goods. Choose a very good shipping company (if you like i can give you my contact, they are based world wide) otherwise you will end up spending a fortune and not see the stock!!

Importing, shipping is a b.... i actually went for a course to understand it!

Best of luck and you know you can contact me if you need some advice..

Keep posting your results with the search!!!

Cheers

Antonino

Hey Antonio,

Thank you very much for your input. I as well have contacted Goin Organic, Pronatec and Mapryser last week. Goin Organic were the first to reply actually. It's good to know you are happy with their products especially that they provide all necessary ingredients for chocolate(i.e organic milk,sugar...) so i'm guessing it is easier to deal with one supplier hence one shipment/one person to harrass or to be harrassed...

Are you happy with Tradin Organic? Anything to look out for?

Thanks again,

Omar

Hi Omar,

I'm a chocolate Maker from italy living in South Africa. We have started a year ago an organic Chocolate Factory bean to bar.

We haven't look at difference between organic and non organic beans and product but we believe that at the high end of the quality (A+ and so ) the price differences is minimal.

We buy from TradingOrganic all our ingredients, but we are looking at Pronatec as well.

If someone knows other trading company that deal with Organic (any part of the world) we would like to know them.

Trading organic has a good range of products and quality, it is however very hard to get detailed info from them like:

origin -(farms, area etc)

Variety- criollo etc)

Quality etc..

They are very slow on answering your request BUT if by mistake you own them 1 dollar they will harass you with a million of emails. It happen to us, they told us to pay a certain amount and then once they found out that THEY did a mistake, i received a gazillion of emails from 3 or 4 different people.

Unfortunately there is not many trading company dealing with Organic, so they abuse their power....

We still deal with them, but i would be very happy to find another supplier...

anyone?

Good Day,

I've been doing some research on organicsemi finished products. Organic cocoa liquor, butter,sugar and milk.Because I am located in the middle east, I have contacted European suppliers: Pronatec and tradin organic. Still waiting for their answer to provide mewith the cost of each ingredient. What I'd love to know from the experts in this field is, what is on average the cost of organic cocoa butter/liquor and what/who do you prefer working with? I'd love to hear your opinionabout this and perhaps anyone can recommend a different supplier I do not know about.

Thank you,

O

Come and see us in upstate NY! Uncle Sam's Candy!

www.unclesamscandy.com

Ultramarinos in Hoboken, NJ

Chocolate Lover's club in Princeton, NJ

Cocova in DC

PotomacChocolate in DC

Esaczu in NC?

SecretChocolatier

2935 Providence Rd
Suite 104
Charlotte NC 28211

for a start. Doyou need suggestionsin NYC as well or doyou know those well already?

I make 8lb batches, toffee itself approximately 4lb into a sheet pan and allow to cool to room temp (68*F) then wipe off butter sheen with damp paper towel then dry towel. Coat with tempered chocolate using spatula, allow to set, then turn and repeat on opposite side, when chocolate is still tacky (nearly set) score with point of knife into squares, then allow to finish setting before breaking into individual pieces. This method produces very little shearing rarely any, maybe 1 in 20 batches will be problematic but not usually more than 1/8 of the batch. I make toffee with Milk choc + almonds (in this case the choc doesn't have to have perfect temper), Milk choc, White compound coating, or Dark choc + white drizzle and all sell very well. It is very dry climate here 30-35% humidity but even on days that exceed 40% I can make toffee without the chocolate from shearing off. I believe the key is in scoring the chocolate before breaking the piece, if the chocolate fully sets before scoring then it is more likely to separate from the toffee.

Start with about 2%, temper like you would milk, and compare the snap of a tabletwith the original dark or see if it's close to a milk sample. You can use other oils like coconut oil, but then it would fall out of the standards of identity for chocolate in the U.S.

Would tasteless coconut oil do the same thing?

This product just wasn't born with a nutty idea (grin.) I'd like to do some classic toffee's that use pecans or almonds, but with this product nuts would get in the way with the real simplicity of the concept.

Mark, would you hazard a guess at the percentage use for this application?

Called butter oil, clarified butter, or AMF (anhydrous milk fat). Should be clear yellow when melted. Note that the more you add, the lower your temperature for tempering. Same reason why milk is lower than dark, and white lower still.

It's hard if your not using any nuts. Is your store nut free or do you just have a lot of people that can't eat nuts but want toffee?

Ah thanks Kerry. We thought it might be as simple as that but web searches started confusing me. Someone called it a more refined canola oil. Clarified I can understand.

Still not quite sure a percentage to use when dealing with slabbing toffee but I'll go ahead and make some and see if Mark returns with thoughts.

Andy,

Clarified butter - ie the fat part of butter when you melt it. I use this when I want to make dark chocolate 'melt in your mouth' when dipping things. 2-4% is what I use.

Thanks Mark, that makes a lot of sense and after another half dozen trials I've really come to the conclusion that whatever tricks are working for people is location based. I can't repeatedly replicate anyones suggestion. What works great one time has near failure on second attempt. The most frustrating thing I have ever encountered.

Can you elaborate on Butter oil? We've never heard of it here so I don't have much of a reference. A brand, a rule of thumb perhaps?

Regarding the difference in success between white or milk vs dark. The toffee is an aqueous system and so does not want to adhere to chocolate. If you were panning chocolate on a water based center, or sugar on chocolate,you would put on an emulsifier coat, such as gum arabic, to get the two to adhere. But not easy to do on a slab of toffee as you would want to dry it. Caution adding moisture to the surface for itseffect on level of sugar crystallizing out, adding a stale note, and possibly more tooth packing.

But the main difference in this application between white/milk and dark chocolate is the amount of butter oil (AMF) in the continuous fat phase, resulting in a higher percentage of the lipids remaining an oil, less crystallized fat, this is why dark has a harder snap than milk, than white. This more liquid coating will adhere better, and it is more flexible so it won't "peel" off as easily. You can try to add a little butter oil to your current dark chocolate. A side advantage is that a little butter oil will help with fat bloom.

Andy, Anything new to report?

Ruth, white just isn't chocolate haha. I mean it's cocoa butter with <1% solids. I expect it to behave differently. I could try some other chocolates but if I vary that's going to mess with the backbone of our operation or if I use the higher end that we use in our truffles it's liable to make my costs bend a bit out of proportion. I'll keep down this line a few more iterations before I'm done.

Anne, I score mine and to some degree that's helped as if it does break off oddly its just around the scored edges I've made. I have threatened that if I continue to fail at this that I'll end up scoring/cutting and then having the kitchen finish them on enrober days. I handle all of our costs based off a COG+L (cost of goods + labor & overhead) spreadsheet I've made and if I hand dipped each unit then broke it, the labor value exceeds percentages I like to keep on most of our products.

If only I could have made this like Robyn with a nut in it, then I could have handled this a few ways hehe. The fact that it's such a simple product (deceptively) creates more problems.

I've got a number of batches I have to crank out this week. Once I take into account some of the addendum's made with Tims observations I'd like a few more cracks at it before I throw in the towel. In the end this can be a large multivariate problem and it only takes a few variables I feel to create issues. Here I thought 6 months ago I was doing something that'd be easy. Haha!

I think you should try scoring while the toffee is still hot. This should help. If you find any pooling of the butter you can always wipe it off with a paper towel. I agree with Ruth that you might need to try a different chocolate.

Am I the only one out there that dips actual pieces and not the whole sheet? It is more time consuming but when I break these pieces into smaller pieces for bags or boxes I don't get any shearing.

Andy, have you tried different chocolates? If white works, maybe try a different chocolate, either brand or type?

Tim, yea I have a few more thoughts to work through. I employed multiple new ideas in one go and that's never a great idea. You should only change one thing per round so you can keep better control.

Robyn, your first method works fine with me. But since we have a naked product. All I use is sea salt, I can't cover the streaking bloom that happens from an untempered product. If I use nuts then my nut allergy crowd would go nuts, hehe!That lead me to wanting to have a tempered solution. I'm amazed you've never had a separation problem with tempered chocolate. You've got a low porosity buttered surface with a slathering of a tempered chocolate which by nature releases.

Searching online nearly everyone who uses tempered chocolate has a chocolate/toffee separation issue that drives them back to an untempered idea.

It could also be the chocolate that's being used. White chocolate doesn't give me this problem at all. Tempered or not.

It's a strange and fickle beast. If anyone does not have this problem, feel very very lucky that your environment, recipe, and/or product choices have coincided to not create a problem. :D

You know, with all the problems you guys are having, I hate to say this. But, I've never had this issue. I've made toffee two ways. One, I scatter half the amount of chopped chocolate and nuts on a silpat. Pour the toffee over as evenly as I can without spreading. Then scatter the other half over that. Let set and break into pieces.

The second way: Pour the toffee in a thin layer on a silpat and let harden. I usually have my tempering machine working while making the toffee. I spread a thin layer of chocolate on one side, then top immediately with chopped nuts. After setting up, I flip it over and repeat. I then break into pieces. I don't usually have a lot of oil form on the top. I have occasionally brush with cocoa powder, but have found it's not necessary.
None of this helps I'm sure, I just can't think of anything that is causing such problems.

I don't know why it's not sticking for you now... so many variables. I haven't really tried any changes at all since I hit on my solution, so I can't suggest what else to try. I can break it whenever I need to and have good results; anywhere from an hour after coating to three or four days.

ahaha. Christopher, small batches take you places. We have a tasters circle we bring in to vet our ideas. Make a few small batches, get an idea of the process and potential workload, if you like it, if more importantly customers like it, then bam-zoom. You're in trouble for creating a sensation. hehe.

Latest update on this test batch.. I had to use a knife to cut along my score lines, I was seeing more sharding than I would have liked but when cutting it I only saw a small amount of toffee/chocolate separation.

I have to try this again though. Because I was basically cooking my toffee longer in the oven I had a higher % of butter separation than I am used to. This could be creating an issue with the test if even after a good and through wiping the excess I feel it could be throwing a bit of this off. I also want to try not scoring it. Scoring can pool butter which may increase the sharding.

So positive signs but inconclusive. More experimentation!

I am waiting on the edge of my seat here to see how it went, this is a very interesting discussion. I have not made toffee in my shop yet, but have been working on a recipe for it, but now I'm having second thoughts. There hasn't been much call for it here but I always want to try new things to keep my creative juices flowing. I can't wait for the next chapter.

Ok. We have a convection oven and I left it on. Maybe not the best idea. It's amazing I can tell there is a difference in the sugar setting up. Look forward to seeing how it rests over the next day.

I spread about a tsp, maybe a little more with a brush over the cooled toffee (wiped any excess butter) until the water got a little tacky then immediately ladled on our tempered chocolate.

I let it set up about an hour and just got finished fiddling with about half of it. I'm still seeing quite a bit of sharding. Underneath the tempered chocolate it's a little soft still. How long do you let your slab rest before you break into it?

If I switch from breaking it to knifing it, cutting into it, that's working pretty well.

I'm walking away from it for the night. See if that moist-ish layer between the toffee and chocolate dries/soldifies/whatever and will try again in the morning. If you have any further input on that stage, awesome.

It's a deck oven. I warm it to 150'C/300'F and turn it off, then leave the trays for about twenty minutes or so. Sometimes the corners get a bit bubbly, but they settle down once they come out.

Hey Tim, I've tried part one of your suggestions--I let it sit in a 150'c / 302'f oven and it spread a little. I had to jiggle it to the corners to help move it around. How long do you use the oven for? I started w/ 5m.

Is yours convection or standard? Few finer points I had not thought through.

It seemed to work well enough though. Looking forward to trying the couple tsps of water brushed on then tempered chocolate. Oooh experimentation!

Ah you can reach me at andy at thesecretchocolatier dot com if you have anything offsite you want to discuss, or PM me here if you need.

It looks like our recipes are very similar, I think our only difference might be cream instead of milk. Thinking back over my purchase lists.

As you may have noticed our batch sizes are not incredible. We usually keep things much smaller so we keep a good control over it all and it all stays fresh. Most all of our truffles and caramels are done in < 200 unit batches.

I've never heard of using corn syrup solids. My father-in-law controls all the caramels so I'll ask him next time I see him.

I wasn't sure where to go on your website to ask a question so I'll do it now.

I have a question about making caramels. Boy was my arm tired the day I made toffee and caramel in the same day.

My recipe is a typical one, butter, cream, corn syrup, sugar, milk, sweetened condensed milk, and vanilla.

When I was talking to an expert at the Cargill chocolate company he said I should be using corn syrup solids. I didn't want to show my total ignorance, so I just wrote down the information. Does anyone use this product, and if so, how do you use it?

My supplier only can get in in 50 pound tubs which is way too much for me.

If anyone is interested Cargill Company has a wonderful three day course on how to start a chocolate business. It's two days of classroom and one day of hands on. If your an accomplished chocolatier the hands on might seem simple, but you can pick the experts brains.

Trying to visualize how large a pot you all are using. We use induction cooktops here to keep more heat out of the kitchen but you're creeping into the zone where you're going to need more output than those magnetic beasts allow for. I can't quite recall how large out pot is.. I think I'm using a 5Qt SS but I may be off.

We did a laser thermometer check of hot pans out of the oven. Within the first minute they've lost half their heat. Amazing how quick that happens. Inversely a cold pan absorbs half the toffee heat in about the same time. Using smaller pans (1/2 sheets) is smart, they can't be used as heat sinks so much due to the limited size.

Love the discussion, lots of interesting thoughts and perspectives on how we accomplish the task. Anne you're usage early on in this discussion of Toffee Hell has gotten a consistent laugh by my family.

I make about 14 pounds of finished product at a time. I take 5, 1/2 sheet pans lightly sprayed with Pam into a cold oven. I turn it to 350, and when it reaches that temp I turn off the oven. I do this while I'm melting the butter.

When the toffee is done I put the hot pans on the counter and put some toffee in each of the 5 pans. I can control the thickness because by using 5 pans there's room for the toffee with space left over.

As I said before, I score it and break the pieces when it's still warm, let it air dry for a bit. Then I have a tray covered in nuts. I dip the pieces, drop them on the tray, and let my husband sprinkles the nuts on the top.

Silpat works but I found parchment paper worked just as well. The toffee might start pulling threads off the edge of the silpats so just be aware. That eventually annoyed me enough that I went back to parchment paper. The rolling pin is an interesting thought. I used one early on during the setup phase and it didn't help as much as an offset spatula and being fast as one could be.

You've given me a lot to think about today Tim. Thank you for signing up and participating. I really appreciate it.

Well, it doesn't really spread at all on aluminum foil so I pour it onto the lined sheet pans and just let it sit in a 150'C oven and it self spreads and levels. That's my bottle neck now--the oven only holds the four pans. I think with the silpats I'll be able to spread better than I can on the aluminum foil. If not, I'll be stuck at my current batch size. I also have a teflon rolling pin on the way that should make things easy... I hope; kinda winging it a lot of the time.

Wow Tim, you're doing great between the proverbial rock and a hard place.

I was wondering if the chocolate sieze was preventing water absorption. Looking forward to my next batch to give that idea shot.

You're 2x what I'm up to; how do you manage to spread that much material in the time it takes for the toffee to start setting? We were heating pans but that just takes too much time/heat/effort, but to spread one whole sheet pan you get one or two spreads attempts then--well you better like what you've done haaha!

I'm glad you like the look of it. I think that picture is a little under 1/4" (it's about 5mm), but the added chocolate I'm doing now probably puts it at 7mm, so a bit over 1/4", though the thickness of the toffee is the same.

Yes, brushing both sides. Honestly, it might speed up softening, but I don't know; I've never kept any past about 10 days. I suspect that it wouldn't, though, since I think the seizing chocolate binds most of that water away from the toffee.