Forum Activity for @Thomas Snyder

I had a similar issue with our health department, but it turned out very well. I was asking about chocolate covered bacon (I had several customers asking for it), and the answer I received was very informative. Like Clay and Sebastian said, it's all about the AVAILABLE water, or water activity. The inspector just had me make up a few samples for them, and they took em to conduct testing on them. A week later, I had results (all of the samples were under the .85 that the health department requires here, but some were just not crisp enough to work well in chocolate) and had em on the shelves that day.

I feel for you that your inspector wasn't as knowledgeable as he should be on the subject.

Clay and Sebastian are both spot on with their individual points. I JUST dealt with that same issue with my regional health inspector when I opened my third location. He was young and unaware. I found it very annoying that he has the power to refuse food permits, revoke permits, and essentially close a business down, and the ignorance to do it without justification. I voiced that concern of his incompetencein a fashion one could well imagine, having read some of my posts on this forum in the past.

If your health inspector causes you flack, ask for his supervisor's name, so you can discuss with them how it is that one of his inspectors can visit a business having no understanding of pathogen contamination of food in the establishments they are inspecting.

I got the permit without further issue and opened that day.

Cheers.

Loads of documentation out there on the role of water activity and food safety - do a google search for water activity chart, for example, and you'll get a handy printable wallet card you can give your friendly food inspector. water activity (Aw) isn't a measure of how much water is present - it's a measure of how much water is *available*. For chocolate/compounds, they're essentially the same thing. Your typical coating will have an Aw of approx 0.2-0.3 - which is 2-3x lower than is required to support the most basic forms of microbioogical growth (the minimum Aw required to support growth is slightly above 0.6 Aw)

If you're talking something like milk, sauces, soups, etc - things that are mostly water - 100F is where mesophilic bacteria love to play - likely your food inspector is looking at it through the lens of the buffet line at your local old country buffet - where if you leave almost anything there at 100F for very long, you're likely to get very sick. since there's only tenth's of a percent of water in compound, and any of the water that's there isn't available to support growth anyway (ie it's either in the form of water of crystallization, surface monolayers adsorbed to milk/sugars, etc), there's absolutely zero risk of micro growth. as long as you're not adding anything with moisture into it. Your supplier can give you the exact Aw, moisture content, and ingredient label that you can then give to your inspector to prove there's no risk.

EDITED to note that frequently washing your chocolate melters can actually INCREASE the risk of microbiological contamination. if seems many cases where post washing, equipment has not been dried properly - and that'll lead to problems. certainly not saying you shouldn't be washing your equipment, but many folks overwash or wash improperly and unintentionally increase their risk exposure. Large scale enrobers NEVER get water washed. Water is quite often the enemy in a chocolate plant.

Shannon:

This is a case of the food inspectors not knowing much (or anything) about chocolate (or compound).

There is no water in chocolate so there is nothing for bacteria/yeast/molds/spores to grow in.

You can leave a bar of chocolate out "in the danger zone" for months or years and nothing will grow on it (or in it), unless it gets wet.Cross contamination is really only an issue if you introduce something with water in it - dairy ingredients for example. You always want to make sure to keep things clean, including your hands, but most importantly you want to keep everything that comes in contact with the chocolate/compound dry.

That said, you are right. There is no easily accessible documentation from a source that a health inspector would believe was an authority. (However, this discussion is up in Google search results in about 3 hours.)

However, keeping chocolate and compound in melters all day long is standard for the business. It's done everywhere, all day long.

Maybe Sebastian has some documentation that would address this issue?

I recently purchased a chocolate melter from TCF sales.I am currently using Mercken's compound melts in this melter.

We are extremely happy with the increased productivity, but our health inspector expressed concern at the contents sitting at 100 degrees being in the "danger zone". I always understood this to apply to raw or cooked temperature sensitive foods (meats, eggs, etc). I always understood chocolate and compounds were not TSF (temperature sensitive food) by point of food safety. I have never seen chocolate or compounds to be a concern for bacterial growth as long as the product is not contaminated by another substance.

When we use this melter, a sanitized dipper is used to scoop compound out. The compoud is NEVER introduced back to the melter once it has been used, and only sanitized utensils over touch the melted chocolate. It is completely cleaned every-other day by washing the containers and replacing with fresh compound.

My concern is that my inspector is not familiar with confectionery as opposed to restaurant food safety requirements. We don't use food borne illness prone meats and other bacteria-prone agents. Unfortunately, I cannot find ANY documentation -- not even from ADM Cocoa (the maker of Mercken's) -- that will explicitly state that compound is not conducive to bacterial growth at 100 degrees consistent melted temperature; nor anything stating the contrary.

Does anyone happen to have expertise in this area that could help me locate any sort of back up that says what I'm doing is the right way? I know they wouldn't be able to sell these melters for commercial use if it were really true that storing chocolate or compound at 100 degrees for 4+ hours causes bacteria and food borne illness! I need something in writing though Any direction would be wonderful!

Thanks!!

Clay, thanks for your input, yes the ganache is for cake filling. I want to try different things. I would like very much to use Brad's recipe which would mean leaving out the dairy, I don't mind doing that. Your advice on pasteurizing the cream is very helpful as I always understood that because the cream was brought up to almost boiling was enough for pasteurization. I will certainly try honey. Thanks for being so specific on temperature and mixing of the ganache, these things are all new to me so I'm really learning good stuff here. When I say a cool room I mean one which is totally heat free, in fact it's almost as cold as the refrigerator, brrrrr, that's my kitchen! I think what I'll do is make very small amounts and keep out on the counter covered up to see how it behaves. Not all of my cakes take three days to enrobe, however it's good to learn whether it will be ok with ganache filling. I have to also take into account how it will be stored once out of my tender loving care! I much appreciate all the advice, from yourself, Brad and Andrea. I'll get back and let you guys know how I did.

Clay;

My recipe doesn't call for extra water, nor does it call for cream.

I can only assume here you're talking about a situation where Rosanne uses a different recipe...

Brad.

Rosanne:

I just want to make sure that I understand that you're looking for this ganache to be the filling between layers of the cake.

And - how cool is cool?

The observation about glucose is interesting ... but did you know that honey is also an invert sugar and that it can be used the same way that glucose/trimoline are used? Try Brad's recipe with a neutral-flavored honey (or replace some of the sugar with honey) and use as little extra water as possible when heating the fruit to incorporate the sugar/honey.

Also, once you open your containers of dairy, technically they are no longer pasteurized. So while heavy cream has a lot more water than butter does, you can put it on a stove and re-pasteurize it (bring it to a boil, take it off the heat for 1 minute, return it to a boil a second time, take it off the heat for one minute, re-boil, take off the heat and let cool to 160F (70C) then use the heat of the cream to melt the chocolate.

When you mix the ingredients together - cream, chocolate, sweetened fruit puree - take care to mix in as little air as possible. Use a wooden spoon or spatula and not a balloon whisk. There are spores in the air that will grow in the water in recipe. The more air you mix into the recipe the more spores there will be.

Yes. It's fine.

Let me know how it works out for you.

Cheers.

Hey Brad, that is so generous of you, I will definitely make this up and get back to you. So this is ok for filling a cake which needs to be decorated over a period of say three days without refrigeration? Thank you soo much!

Rosanne

Try this:

1kg milk chocolate broken into small pieces

500ml of raspberry puree'

125g granulated sugar

190g unsalted butter (optional)

Bring the raspberries and sugarto a boil on your stove, and simmer for 5-10 minutes.

Put into a food processor to break down all of the fibres in the fruit.

Strain through a very fine siev to get the seads out.

while hot, mix into the chocolate and stir until smooth.

Let set in the fridge.

If you find the ganache too thick to work with at room temperature, you can add the butter, and that will soften it up considerably, and give it a velvety texture.

This is essentially one of my company's truffle fillings (almost), with the exception that we whip it like whipping cream to incorporate air into it and make it very fluffy before we make it into truffles. It's one of my shop's most popular centers.

Cheers

Brad

I feel much more informed now, at least I can experiment and see how long the ganache stays good. I'll post my results after experimenting, can't thank you enough Andrea.

Sweeteners like glucose do several things for ganaches. They increase shelf life, improve texture and stabilize it (i.e prevent separation). They increase shelf life of a ganache by binding with water which lowers water activity levels and making it more resistant to spoilage.

How does adding glucose to the ganache extend the shelf-life?

I don't know much about freeze dried fruits. I've never used them after they have been rehydrated. I have used them in their freeze dried form and they are very flavor intensive. Raspberry might be too tart this way though and as I said I don't know about rehydrating them.

I have made raspberry ganache previouslyand my only comment is that you will lose some of the intensity of the fruit flavor. So if a subtle raspberry flavor is what you want a ganache is a great way to go.You'd probably be just fine making a raspberry-flavored ganache for the cake and not have to worry about the mold issue. You will get a more intense raspberry flavor if you reduce the puree before adding it. You could also extend the shelf life if you use glucose (corn syrup) in the ganache. Also, I'd use the puree in the ganache (as opposed to a jelly) because it will be a "fresher" flavor. Good luck with your cake and ganache! Andrea

Thanks Andrea for your reply and confirming what I was thinking. Making jelly sounds good but I was hoping to do something a little different with the ganache, can the jelly not be added to the ganache without worrying about molding? I keep reading about fruit flavoured ganache in cake fillings, so I guess these must be used on day of bake and consumed quickly. Would the same apply if I was to use freeze dried raspberries. hydrated and pureed? I've come across comments about dried fruits being used in chocolate making and was wondering whether the dry freeze might be a possibility. I've also been told adding glucose/glycerine can extend shelf life. I don't know whether that is correct plus I wouldn't know how it would affect the consistency of the ganache. Do you have any thoughts on this? Finally do people use butter ganache as cake filling? So many questions!! Perhaps I should just make some up and see how it holds up. I really appreciate your advice, thank you.

rosanne

I would worry about mold with a fresh raspberry puree esp. since it will be sitting for several days. Fresh fruit purees are not boiled when they are made. You puree up the fruit, run it thru a sieve to remove seeds and then add about 10% sugar by remaining weight. That said, various recipes do call for reducing the puree in half before using it in a ganache (it intensifies the flavor and reduces water content). Other recipes don't call for the puree to be reduced at all. I have a suggestion that might avoid the issue for you. Consider making just a plain chocolate ganache. Then use your puree to make a "jelly" to put on as another layer on the cake (puree, sugar and pectin and then undercook it to avoid it being too thick). The flavor will be nice and intense and I think you wouldn't have to worry about mold nearly as much.

Andrea

Hi Everyone

This is my very first post, I love being here and learning so much. My question is for raspberry ganache made from fresh fruit. The ganache will be for cake filling, working with dark chocolate 60% 2:1 choc to heavy cream. Do the raspberries have to be boiled up in sugars and reduced before adding? I'm wary of molding since the cake will be worked on for approx three days for celebration icing and decoration. It can not be refrigerated although it will be in a cool environment. I'd be interested to know what kind of shelf life to expect, and would appreciate any input. Thank you.

Well, I don't have any perforated sheet pans, but I would think just a trip to Bargreen's would net me some. I work with my mom's baking company out of the local food hub's commercial kitchen. We have a double Wolf stove with a 6 burners and a short grill, and a convection oven next to those. I've got plenty of options there, so I think the roaster is probably gonna be taken off the table for now...

Cooking anything evenly is about heat and airflow. You need both. A good example of what I'm talking about is putting two sheet pans in a regular oven - one on the top rack and one on the bottom. The product on the bottom rack will be burnt LONG before the product on the top rack is cooked, because the bottom rack blocks the air flow created by the heating element, thereby trapping the heat underneath it. This is slightly mitigated by staggering the trays (one on one side of the oven and and one on the other), instead of having them directly above of each other.

For your home oven, roast one tray at a time, and if possible use a perforated tray. Fill the tray so that the beans aren't stacked on top of each other, but at least you can't see much tray under your beans. If you have no perforated trays, you will need to stir the beans on the sheet pan every 5-10 minutes.

What I would suggest is to cut the bottom out of a sheet pan and fasten a metal screen in its place. This will let more airflow through and give you a much better roast regardless of whether or not you have a convection oven. Sheet pans are cheap, and so is screen.

In my shop we use perforated sheet pans. (you can buy them in North America at restaurant equipment supply places through special order). This along with a convection oven with the fan on low, works fabulously and we don't have to touch them once they go in the oven.

Hope that helps.

Brad

Yes, it does! I was worried about purchasing 220 pounds and then the beans going bad before I had the opportunity to roast and use them. Now I've got some definite hard thinking to do about what I'm going to purchase then...

And it definitely helps in determining how to roast em, but it opens up more questions too... How much do you roast at a time? Do you use a regular oven, or convection? Do you stir the beans in the pan at all?

Thanks Brad!

Keep the beans dry and they will store almost indefinitely.

With regard to the quality and the roast.... My grandmother always used to say thatyou "can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear."

She was right.

Roasting is an exercise of experience.Go with your nose to start. The beans will start smelling like brownies, then get quite acidic, and then go back to richdeepbrownies. It's at the third stage you are done. Do a low temperature roast to start (300f), and play around with times between 30 min and 60 min depending on the acidity of the bean. Smell them every 5 minutes to gain experience in what to expect.

Hope that helps.

Well, I guess I should have mentioned my budget, huh? lol. My total I have for this project is $2,260. I've been doing molded chocolates and truffles, and our chuch's retired pastor is completely in love with them. lol. I had mentioned my desire to make chocolate from scratch to him, and a week later I was in his living room outlining my budget to him as he cut me a check for what I needed. Deal is him and his wife get a pound of chocolates a month for the rest of their lives! It won't be an insanely long time as he's 86 and she's 92! lol.

Anyways, I figured that between what I have listed, and $200 for 20 lbs of beans (I estimated that, since the average price I"m finding is between $8.50 and $9.50 an lb), $365 for 55 lbs of cocoa butter, $120 for 50 lbs of milk powder and $125 for 50 lbs of Sucanat (all natural, organic, f/t, unprocessed), That brings the total up to $2230.

Now, I've got a better source than I had originally quoted him for my beans. Got a guy in Costa Rico that charges $4 a kilo, plus shipping. Once I get things going (and I know how to NOT ruin my chocolate), I'll make a 100 kilo order which comes out to be about $900 including shipping.

So, I guess I'm asking if I should just skip getting the champion and the roaster and get the 100kg order of beans to start with? If I don't get those two and add the $200 for beans to that, I've got $750, so I'd need another bill fifty from somewhere to get the entire order...

Also, how long can I keep the un-roasted beans for? Do they spoil after a certain amount of time? The commercial kitchen we're putting in the church (that's where we're gonna do our baking and my chocolates, since we're outgrowing the co-op we currently work with) won't be done for AT LEAST two months, and even then it's gonna take a while for me to figure out the proper techniques for roasting and whatnot. I want to order things soon, but I don't want almost a grand worth of beans to go rancid before I even get the chance to make them into chocolates.

Another thought I have is that I have been assuming that the roast really determines the flavor of the chocolate about as much as the individual beans themselves do (somewhat like coffee. If it's shit beans, the taste is shit no matter how well it's roasted, and if it's roasted improperly, it's shit no matter how high the bean quality is). Is that correct, or am I way off base there? And where can I find more information on how to roast properly? I haven't been able to find much of anything for that answer...

That's a good point actually re the Champion - even though I have one, I don't pre-grind the nibs in it before adding to the melanger . . . I just put my winnowed nibs straight into the melanger.

To back up Gap, you don't need a roaster. Cooking anything is about heat and airflow - plain and simple. Cocoa beans will roast just fine in your oven. I did it for 3 years before I started Choklat. Now I roast in a commercial convection oven and my beans cook perfectly.

You also don't need the juicer. It makes more of a mess than anything else. I only used the juicer the first month I made chocolate.

There. I've just saved you $540. Go buy more beans and have fun! After all, someone told me once (actually a couple of times). "It's just chocolate."

Cheers.

Brad

Depends how much you want to make and your budget.

I have a Melanger (I use a Premier Wet Grinder) and a Champion Juicer. I use the Champion for cracking beans because we happened to have one before I started making chocolate (I don't use a Crackenstein) and I use a hairdryer to winnow (I don't use a Slyph). I roast in an oven (so I don't use a Behomer).

I make 1-2kg batches at a time and find my setup works quickly and efficiently for me.

So, I've got a decent amount set aside to order the equipment I need for small scale bean-to-bar production, but I wanted to get some advice before ordering well over a thousand bucks worth of stuff.

So far, here's the list of what I'm ordering (it all just happens to be from the same place since I like to order locally, and Chocolate Alchemy is a small business only a state away):

Spectra 11 Melanger ($490)

Behemor 1600 Coffee and Cocoa Roaster (comes with 4 lbs of free cocoa beans!)($300)

Crankandstein Cocoa mill ($190)

Champion Juicer ($240)

Slyph Winnower($200)

Total = $1,420

Is there anything I'm missing from this list? I know I'm gonna need some sugar, and powdered milk, and cocoa butter. I'm also gonna be ordering a 55 pound block of CB from John too, since it's the best price I've seen on organic fair trade cocoa butter ($380 for 55 lbs of deoderized) since I started looking for supplies. I'm gonna wait on ordering it though (and the milk), since I'll be starting with only dark chocolate.

Any comments, questions? Please, help out a novice just starting out!

Thanks in advance!

~Tom

Some folks use a excalibur dehydrator. I've been eyeing reptile incubators lately!

I use my Mol d"Art melting tank. Ihave a 6kg tank and find it hold the gun and 4-5 colours. I leave them overnight before I plan to use them and leave them in the tank while I'm working as well.

Thanks Andrea I surely give it a trial.

Annibelle

You can try an inexpensive yogurt maker. They work at low heat. It can be trial and error but I've found that mine without the lid on it works well. I think mine was about $15. The brand of mine is Total Chef Yogurt Maker.

Thank you so much! This is exactly the kind of advice I was seeking! I should have been stirring more while I was dipping. I'm making my first large test batch of chocolates in 2 weeks and I will keep that in mind.

-Kaydee

To understand tempering chocolate, you need to keep in mind that with the exception of your melting temperature, the cocoa butter is crystalizing ALL the time. At it's ideal working temperature, if you don't agitate it, the chocolate will go solid on you. Also, room temperature plays a big part in the crystalization - especially if you aren't agitating your chocolate properly.

Agitation is THE most important part of working with chocolate. ALL tempering machines will be agitating the chocolate at all times, in order to keep in a working state and prevent it from solidifying. If you are tempering chocolate by hand, you need to be stirring it 100% of the time you are working with it, or you will always get bloom.

One other thing: When you reheat your chocolate on your double boiler (after melting and cooling it) to it's working temperature, remove it from the double boiler approximately 5 degrees LOWER than your target temperature. The reason for this is because your pot will still be hot, and will continue to drag the temperature up (and out of temper) for a few minutes after it is removed from the heat. If you remove it too soon, you can always bring it up a degree or two with a blow dryer on the low setting blown directly on the chocolate while you are stirring it.

Cheers.

Brad.

A melter (such as a Mol d'Art is used for keeping chocolate at working temp. It melts the chocolate at a high temp, then you temper the choc and reduce the temp on the melting tank. When you put the tempered choc back into the unit, it holds it at the correct temp. A melter will simply hold the choc at a given temp, it will not temper the chocolate for you.

A tempering machine will do both - it will melt your chocolate, temper it and then hold it at the working temp.

I am teaching myself to temper chocolate right now and I'm wondering the best way to hold the temperature of the chocolate. I'm using a double boiler and using both milk and dark chocolate. I followed the temperature curve but still got fat bloom. I dipped approximately 25 chocolates and only about 5 of them turned out without the bloom!

When using the double boiler method, should the temperature of the burner be lowered once the chocolate has reached it's melting temperature?

Any tips for keeping chocolate at a working temperature will be greatly appreciated.

I've been looking into getting a tempering machine or the more European style pan melter at some point. Can the melter be used for tempering? How should I decide which one to get (aside from cost, unless one is more economical with the same results)?

Hi, I am a raw foodist from New Zealand living in switzerland and have developed the love of making raw chocolate and I am travelling in ecuador at the moment to escape the swiss winter.

I really want to buy coca [sic: cocoa is probably what was meant] products and apart from ready made chocolate bars I am struggling to find anywhere I can buy the raw product ie. powder, butter, nibs or anything 100%. Does anyone know anywhere in quito [Ecuador]that I could buy wholesale amounts. Or any other place that has good organic cocoa. I have 1 more month here till early may and would really love to find a good supplier who I can ship stuff back to switzerland regularly later down the track as well.

I have one with the enrober. It is a good little machine. Like Kerry says, low tech. It isn't the greatest temper, but for the price, it certainly will get the job done.

They are pretty low tech - don't think you need to worry too much about a lemon. They are made in Quebec so if a thermostat goes you should be able to get replacements easily. I like the idea of the Air vs their water version.

You can add a Perfect enrober to the Air 2 as well when your business grows more (I think I saw one for sale on the classifieds here on CL) .

Hi everyone! Just wanted to ask your professional opinions on a temperer I've found locally. [Edited to add: Locally is Toronto, Ontario, Canada.]

A shop in my area is going out of business and they are selling their temperer. I believe it is an Air 2 made by Perfect inc (just the info the seller has send me, so I haven't had a chance to verify). The seller mentioned he used this unit more for a melter versus a temperer (using compound) The machine appears to be 10 plus years old and does have a wheel attachment. It's a counter unit.
I don't have an immediate need for the machine, but also know they don't come up used too often. He's asking for $1200 for the unit. Which I believe is fair. I'd be interested to hear your opinions and what the downside/ additional cost will be if I get a lemon. He was using the machine up until a few weeks ago.
Thanks

Sometimes the Flat Rate Shipping is great, depending on what you are sending. But if your items are smaller and weigh less than a pound, you may want to look into sending it regular mail because it can by way cheaper! I send my 4 pc truffle boxes out for $2.60 using the post office and my own boxes (cost of box included in that #) Another issue is the weight of the ice packs, they can add a lot of price to the shipping, so sometimes the flat rate boxes are good for that. It just depends on the weight of your boxes and how much you are shipping. You have to figure out the balance. During the holiday season I found that the flat rate priority mail boxes had the same shipping time as regular mail, items were arriving 4 days after the estimated time on the receipt for priority mail. So sometimes looking into getting a fedex acct is just the same or cheaper, and def. more reliable.

Another item - using bubble wrap is great but think about adding some nice touches, i use paper shred in all my boxes and it looks a lot better than bubble wrap and is probably cheaper, they come in 20lb boxes and last for many mailings and are good for other things like gift baskets and other decor accents.

Happy Friday!