Forum Activity for @Chris Werner

Hi Larry,

If you insist on chipping in for it I won't hold you back. If you have some friends on this site that you think would appreciate a bar let them know a free bar is headed their way for commenting

Chris

Hi Thomas,

A trade would nice, Ill message you

No problem, would love to trade bars.

Hi Larry,

The bars can be found in a few locations in Wisconsin. Im working on gaining accounts elsewhere. We offer private label and have a few clients. The bars are certainly delightful I can send you one if you would like, message me with your info. A marketing technique I am using is sending a free bar, and Im not sure if the people receiving the sample even appreciate it. I have found that over the phone a surprising amount of people are initially not interested in dark chocolate. These dark chocolate bars at 72% made with Arriba Cacao do not taste like the conventional dark chocolate. I would love to hear what another chocolate enthusiast has to say about it.

Free bar for the next 10 people who comment!

Good question Larry, thanks.

Chris

Hi Chris,

Are these bars available anywhere in the US? The marketing copy on your website, indicates your chocolate should be delightful. I'd love to sink my teeth into one. Where can I get one?

Thanks,

Larry

Hi!

My name is Chris Werner and I am the Assistant Marketing Director of Andean Chocolate Company. If anyone is interested in Arriba Cacao please contact me. Able to provide organic Arriba Cacao from various regions of Ecuador.

http://www.andeanchocolatecompany.com

Thanks a lot Andy!

I actually just got done reading your thread from a few years ago. It sounds like you really went through a lot to make toffee work for your business. I read in your thread that you were looking to simply break up slabs of chocolate covered toffee versus enrobing each piece separately. Is that what worked out for you and provides you a 6 month shelf life? I know that a fully enrobed piece will last longer, but it is more expensive from a labor perspective. I also like the look of a broken up piece with the toffee exposed better. Thanks again for sharing your experience.

If you ever need a toffee tester... 8-) they say it's impossible for someone to just have one potato chip. I disagree. it's impossible to have just one piece of toffee - that stuff kills me, but oh how i love it!

generally speaking heat is an enemy of fat stability. Ghee is functionally not very different than anhydrous milk fat. it could be that enstrom's actually hasn't boiled off their moisture contained in the butter they're using, and the resulting toffee is higher in moisture than it should be - which, combined with heat, results in bad things (tm) happening to fats. of course, it could also be that if you don't refrigerate their product as they say you need to, it could be just fine. there's lots of urban legend and misconceptions out there as to what is necessary, or anecdotal evidence that has shaped current policy - as i tell my daughter all the time - just because someone SAYS you have to do something doesn't mean it's actually TRUE ...

I'm boggled by this. I spent a good 4 months working on toffee--much of that trial and tribulation can be found here. In the past year I've probably made a few tons of toffee and most of that was by hand. Now we have a firekettle (which is a new learning curve & beast but that's another tale..)

I like to think of toffee like making a roux. You can't have excess butter or it won't bind to the sugar. So I'm really curious what kind of product they are making to have greater butter than average. I mean it's a butter + sugar product, plain and simple. Your ratio will dictate a few things but toffee is toffee is toffee until you start adding alternate sugars (like honey) or end of product additions.

Anyhow my toffee has about a 6 month shelf life before the elements start to seep in and the quality is not what I like. Luckily no where we stock lasts that long due to consumer habits but that's the longevity we give it before we would pull it.

Like it was mentioned toffee is hydroscopic by nature. It wants to absorb water, it LOVES to absorb moisture. In the summers here in the Carolinas where the average humidity is 90% we have to change the entire method of making it, and then speedily get it enrobed so that we can prevent the air from getting to it. If we left a sheetpan of toffee out over night it would have a liquid layer by the morning. Crazy. Even then packaging has some microlevel of porosity and that will eventually be the downfall of the product.

I like to think that at the heat level its cooked the proteins are broken down and the fats are converted to something more like ghee so you've got really no chance of rancidity then there's enough sugar that it's a shelf stable product since your available water is nill unless the environment adds it back. So I'd love to know how Enstrom's has done something so unique that it has this required refrigeration. It just doesn't make sense to me.

For us it's a fire and forget process. I wouldn't worry much about it. Run your own shelf tests and you should find it's something you can reliably not worry about.

Not sure i've got a technical answer for you mate... i've consumed more toffee than your average bear, and i don't think i've ever had a rancid one. I'm sure it can happen, i've just never seen it. I've seen lots and lots of toffee rolled in almonds that tasted terrible, but that was the problem of the nuts, not the toffee...

Take some of theirs and do an informal shelf life study yourself by sitting it on the counter and tasting it every week for 6 months?

Thanks Sebastian for your reply! Your input is always very insightful. In the case of Enstrom Toffee, there is apparently so much butter in their recipe that they require their sealed boxes to be stored in refrigeration or a freezer. The issue being that the fats in the butter will go rancid if not refrigerated. I am wondering how much butter is too much and at what point does one pass the point at which toffee can be stored at room temperature when sealed.

Well, all toffee contains milk products, so by definition it contains dairy. The real question(s) are ones of water activity (is there sufficient free water in your formulation to support microbiological growth - typically toffee formulations are very low Aw - you'd need to answer that question for your formulation and process), and one of moisture absorption (toffee will absorb moisture from the air, changing it's texture) - It's typically not a food safety concern, more of a quality one. Mark from here is much more well versed in toffee than i and may chime in.

I am starting to think about adding toffee to our product line. I learned that Enstroms Toffee is actually considered a dairy product and requires refrigeration. I am wondering how others store toffee. I plan on sealing the bags of toffee, but I know that most retailers that we work with will not have available fridge or freezer space. I've certainly seen other brands of toffee displayed and sold at room temperature. How can one determine if toffee is safe to store at room temperature? if it is able to be at room temperature, does anyone know the shelf life of it? It is my plan to make slabs of chocolate covered toffee and then break it up versus fully enrobed pieces (which I imagine would have an even longer shelf life). Thanks for your input!

Daniel

Thanks. After I made that last reply I was weighing the pros and cons of putting the 400 screen in front of the 250, and vice versa. Still, even as low as $500 sounds for this craft, I am going to wait until I can produce a chocolate bar worth continuing on with. I am still hoping it's the under fermented bean. I tried being really careful about getting no shell/husk in the chocolate, and grinding for a couple days, but I still did not notice a drop in bitterness. Our neighbor is on the lookout for properly fermented beans among the other cacao farmers he knows.

Possibly. Mind the tolerances so that your hammers don't end up turning your screen into screen dust.

Making a mesh, I wonder too if that's a possibility. We have machinists here, but not sure if they could do something to that level of detail. Larry showed a link above to a company that makes mesh.

As far as doing the sampling, there's a logistic problem. We live in Honduras and the vendor is in China. Getting things in and out of Honduras to/from the USA is difficult enough. I'd have no clue how to do that with China.

If we can get our microscope back from a friend, I will try and measure Hershey's, and then see if Hershey's works for the dairy.

The cocoa we crush with the grinder works well for baking recipes, we just don't know a lot of people in our area who bake very often. The dairy, on the other hand, buys 50 lbs of cocoa, imported from Spain, to make their ice cream.

I watched the video included on those eBay machines, showing how they operate. I am wondering if it would work to add some mesh behind or in front of the screens they provide. Such as, buy some 400 mesh and place it in front of the 250 mesh screen.

http://www.twpinc.com/wire-mesh/TWPCAT_12/p_400X400T0012W48T

The answer is above, i'm very, very, very familiar with it 8-)

I'd explore asking the vendor if he'd mill some powder if you'd sent it to him, ask him to return it to you milled, and then make some ice cream out of it (i'd not consume it yet) for visual inspection.

I wonder if it's as simple as having someone else make a mesh to fit their equipment?

Hi Sebastian,

I did some follow up on the hammer mills you found on eBay for under $500. The finest mesh they have is 250, 57um. That is probably finer than I am making it with my stone grinder, but from what you said below, probably not fine enough to mix into ice cream?

We're going to try and figure out what size Hershey's Cocoa is with a microscope.

Thanks,

Mark C.

Typical high quality cocoa powders average 8um. there's a distribution, of course - some will be larger, some will be smaller, but it gives you a feel for it. how big is 'too big' for ice cream? that's a very individual question with no clear answer, depends on who's looking at it. finer is always better. 200 um will be too large, as i suspect 74 um will be as well.

what you may be able to do is mill it, use a very fine screen to sieve it, and whatever it retains (i.e. the 'overs') have those remilled until they pass your sieve. it'll be a time consuming process, i wager, but should be effective.

Send him some of your unmilled material and ask if he'd run it for you to see what it yields?

Oh boy, what a novice mistake. Thank you for catching it!

This site has a useful chart on converting mesh size to particle size

http://delloyd.50megs.com/moreinfo/mesh.html

this site will send a 3"x3" sample of their 500 mesh screen. It may be large enough to work some magic. http://www.twpinc.com/wire-mesh/TWPCAT_SS_Fine/p_500X500T0010W40T

Several of the charts referenced that a 400 mesh screen is as fine as can be made. Perhaps it would simply be impractical due to clogging and so forth.

Could you just run the powder through again after working it down to a 400 mesh screen? In theory the cocoa powder would continue to refine as it goes through the mill. I think it would just go through faster because the particles are already small enough to fit through the mesh.

This would probably result in an inconsistent size, but it may work...???

Another question I haven't thought of sorting out, is how small does the powder need to get to not be grainy in ice cream? Mark, do you know how fine your cocoa powder is right now? Is it as fine as a very fine sand (200 microns) or as fine as Portland cement (74 microns)

If the current particle size is large enough, then getting down to 37 microns may be a large enough improvement to work with.

Has anyone requested a quote from on the Pallman mills? http://www.pallmannindustries.com/chocolate_products_-_pulverizing.htm#Cacao" rel="nofollow"> http://www.pallmannindustries.com/chocolate_products_-_pulverizing....

I haven't bothered them, but I wonder how much one of their mills would cost. I couldn't find anything reference a finished particle size on their site, but if they are selling it as a solution to the chocolate industry, it must be pretty good.

Hi Sebastian,

OK, what mesh size should be required? 500, as Larry was requesting? Or is the 400 small enough?

Thanks

Larry - it may be a typo, but you've got 15 NANOMETERS as your particle size target, not 15 MICROMETERS. huge, huge, huge difference...0.037mm = 37 um (not 37,000 um)

Mark - sure, it can be large, but then you have large, visible particles in your finished application. For cocoa powder, finer is almost always better. Historically the low grade asian cocoa producers were characterized by their large particle size - that's changing, but generally speaking cocoa powders users want a fine powder.

Man there's got to be a way short of $10K to pulverise cocoa powder. I thought I read that cocoa powder can be as large as 200 mesh.

I've been curious about grinding the cocoa flakes.

I reached out toone of thesellers of the machines on ebay running around $500. It looks like that machine will not get as fine as the commercial cocoa powders. They replied that with a 400 mesh screen, you could get down to around 0.037mm or 37000um. Here is our conversation string.

I wonder if you could make a500/600 mesh screen to fit.... ???

Subject:NEW Automatic continuous Hammer Mill Herb Grinder,hammer grinder,pulverizer #150980503835 Sent Date: Jun-24-14 09:05:05 PDT

NEW Automatic continuous Hammer Mill Herb Grinder,hammer grinder,pulverizer #150980503835 Sent Date: Jun-23-14 18:16:54 PDT

To: no.1-shops
Hammer Mill Herb Grinder,hammer grinder,pulverizer #150980503835 Sent Date: Jun-23-14 13:13:04 PDT

My budget is painfully low as I've yet to make a decent chocolate and don't want to get in deep until I prove that I can turn out something edible. I can make confections that are good, but a plain bar, either dark or milk, is too bitter.

This weekend I reset my process to Chocolate Alchemy's method of using a Champion juicer to help filter out more of the shell. Will see how that goes. I'm not sure how this process could be made faster, as it's way too inefficient to ever think of going commercial with it. I am thinking I will try cracking the beans before putting them in the forced air roaster. That way more of the shell should blow off in the 15 minute roast plus 10 minute cool down. The fan removes loose shells.

I'm still hoping to make a breakthrough and experimenting with different aspects, but the beans I buy from the local market, as described in a different thread, are not fermented sufficiently. I'm still waiting for a neighbor to come up with properly fermented beans but trying to improve on the market beans in the meantime.

just for giggles, i did a quick ebay search for hammer mills, and a few smaller pieces of gear did show up - caveat: i've never directly used any of the pilot pieces of equipment that are presently listed, so i can't speak to them directly, but there were a few there for less than $500 - i've no idea of your budget, but it could be that it's inexpensive enough to enable a 'try it and see what happens' scenario

Thanks again, Sebastian

Yes, though I could never get a tech spec on the grind mesh range of a Kitchenaid grain mill, I realized it probably was not sufficient to grinding 200 mesh as looks like the max size for cocoa powder. Now I am wondering if the espresso setting on a higher end coffee grinder would work well enough, though I have my doubts.

I have an inquiry for this machine as to the mesh range, but don't have high hopes. I did a search for 'sugar hammer mill for sale' but have not found much yet.

Thanks,

Mark C

your cocoa powder will never dissolve in ice cream - what you need to do is get a sufficiently small particle size that you can't see the individual pieces. commercial cocoa powders are hammer milled down to a very fine particle size (< 8 um). i'm not sure what attachments are available for a kitchen aid, but i'd be surprised if there was an off the shelf solution via that route (i've been surprised before though!). perhaps look for an old sugar hammer mill - i don't think they're very expensive..

I might have a rare problem in that I extract my own cocoa butter using a screw press. The machine serves the purpose of making chocolate. The problem I am left with is doing something with the cocoa solids it removes.

The solids crumble into flakes, which I can grind down a bit using the wet grinder. I just add about two cups at a time to the grinder and run it about 20 minutes. At that point it is fine enough to bake with or use in making chocolate syrup, but not fine enough to mix into liquids, or in this particular case, ice cream.

A local dairy would like to give me the business of producing cocoa powder, but it must be fine enough to dissolve in their ice cream mix. According to the manager, the cocoa I produce is too coarse and shows up grainy in the ice cream. I am not sure what particle size you would find in say, Hershey's, but apparently I am not there.

Does anyone know of any economical solution for this? We have a Kitchenaid stand mixer and I've been looking at the grain mill which makes flour from grains, but I don't know if that would grind it fine enough or not. If not that mill, would any other commercially available mill work?

Thanks,

Mark C

Hi Adrienne,

Thanks for thinking it is cool! Yes, I make it with really tasty white chocolate about 34% cocoa butter. What do you mean by you don't know if this end too well?

Cheers,

Bill

I just went on your site and that is cool

I don't make chocolate but eat it

you may need a very good tasting white chocolate bar or one with much cocoa butter

I don't know this end too well

Hi Everyone,

I am a chocolate newbie but find chocolate production and chocolate mold making a creative interest that is rewarding when your idea comes to fruition especially if it puts a smile on someone's face and makes them feel good eating the chocolate.

With some trial & error I found some luck making white chocolate lithophanes that look stunning. If anyone is interested, I would be happy to collaborate in some fashion. My site is www.chocopic.com and I have presented at the Miami Fine Food, Beverage & Chocolate Show held last March.

I am in the Miami area and will travel as a consultant to get you started doing this. My problem was tempering the white chocolate as I was getting inconsistent results even with a tempering machine ;-(

Attached is a white chocolate lithophane of a jaguar (the darkness and lightness is determined by the chocolate thickness). All lithophanes rely on the material's translucent properties which white chocolate possesses.

I look forward to hearing from you more experienced chocolatiers and would smile if I could make chocolate my livelihood.

Let's network somehow.

Sincerely,

Bill Miller

Thanks for your info. I can't wait to give it a try (and taste)!

A cremino is just a 3-layer stack of white, milk and dark chocolategianduja. Some chefs vary the type of nuts, but traditional Italian Cremini are normally done with hazelnuts. A gianduja is normally 60% chocolate and 40% nut paste.

Does anyone know where I can find a recipe for "cremini" or "cremino?" I've seen a photo of it on the Pernigotti website and I'veheard that it's wonderful, but I'm not having any luck with a recipe.

ADM has a big ol' factory right there.... Callebaut 811 is about as generic and ubiquitous as they come however, if your supplier doesn't have it, almost any other one will... Clasen's only been making chocolate for a very short time.

I have been using Callebaut 811NV for most of my dark chocolates. My current supplier has discontinued carrying it and has suggested something I am completely unfamiliar with . . . Clasen Geneva Dark Chocolate.

Is anyone familiar with how the two might compare?

Anyone have any other suggestions that might be available in our area (east central Wisconsin) that would not require shipping?

Thank You

Kim

Thanks Michael - I guess it's always possible to catch staff on a bad day (everyone's human). I tried a lot of their bean to bar about a year ago and am keen to see how it has come along (and have been asked to pick up some pralines as well). It is a bit out of the way, but I have a very understanding wife

The reception at rue de la Roquette was pretentious and haughty. Yes, I know it is for everyone to play the game, especially because the chocolate is very good (although the choice is not huge and the price is more than the other shops mentioned). The building is very interesting and probably should not be missed for those of us in the chocolate life, but the showroom is very small and the factory floor can only be glimpsed at from thick windows. Please go and report back, I hope your experience is good, it, should be, after all nobody just stumbles onto M. Ducasse's it must be searched out.

Anything in particular you didn't enjoy about Ducasse's? I'm heading over for a couple of weeks soon and its one of the places I plan on stopping at.

Thank you for the kind response. I've been to a few of your recommendations and they were wonderful. On this trip we were pressed for time but managed to see a few places including:

Francois Pralus 35 Rue Rambuteau, 75004,Chocolatier Servant 30 Rue d'Auteuil 75016, A La Mre de Famille 35 Rue du Faubourg Montmartre 75009and Le Chocolat Alain Ducasse.

I've posted some snapshots of Ducasse's for you to see but I'm afraid we didn't enjoy the visit much and the trip was only saved by the very enjoyable Beauveau covered market (market Aligre), Metro Bastille.