Forum Activity for @Thomas Forbes

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

Best reading are pp. 15-17

http://www.worldcocoafoundation.org/scientific-research/research-library/pdf/Ramli2006%28PostHarvestDrying177KB%29.pdf

updated by @Thomas Forbes: 09/16/15 02:47:27

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

Here is an article that you and others might find interesting, I have cut in the abstract text below but it is the later section of the paper on the Sensory Evaluation of Dark Chocolate that is relevant to this discussion and is worth a read see attached file

INFLUENCE OF ROASTING CONDITIONS ON VOLATILE FLAVOR OF ROASTED MALAYSIAN COCOA BEAN Journal of Food Processing and Preservation 30, 2006, p280

Abstract:

In this study, commercial Malaysian cocoa beans (SMC1A) were roasted

in a forced airflow-drying oven for 20, 30, 40 and 50 min at 120, 130, 140,

150, 160 and 170C. The products were evaluated for flavor compounds and

sensory evaluation (as dark chocolate). The volatile fraction was isolated

using the combined steam distillationextraction procedure and was identified

by gas chromatographymass spectrometry. A quantitative descriptive analysis

was used to evaluate the flavor intensity of the chocolates using a 9-point

rating scale for selected flavor attributes, namely astringency, bitter taste,

sour taste, cocoa and burnt. Panelists were asked to smell and taste the sample

against a standard chocolate. It was found that there were significant differences

in flavor compounds between the different conditions of roasting. The

main flavoring compounds identified composed of aliphatic and alicyclic

groups such as alcohol and ester, and heterocyclic groups such as pyrazine

and aldehyde. A total of 19 volatile major components were identified:

nine pyrazines (2,5-dimethyl-, 2,3-dimethyl-, 2-ethyl-6-methyl-, trimethyl-,

3-ethyl-2,5-dimethyl-, tetramethyl-, 2-ethenyl-6-methyl- and 3,5-dimethyl-2-

methylpyrazine); five aldehydes (5-methyl-2-phenyl-2-hexenal, benzaldehyde,

benzalacetaldehyde and a-ethyliden-benzenacetaldehyde); one methyl ketone

(2-nonanone); two alcohols (linalool and 2-heptanol); and two esters

(4-ethylphenyl acetate and 2-phenylethyl acetate). Based on the flavor profile

of the compounds identified, an optimum production of the major flavoring

compounds such as pyrazine, aldehyde, ketone, alcohol and ester occurred at

160C for 30 min of roasting. Trimethylpyrazine and tetramethylpyrazine compounds

together with 5-methyl-2-phenyl-2-hexanal were found to be good

indicators for the evaluation of the roasting process. However, based on

chocolate evaluation, the best roasting temperature was 150C for 30 min,

which gave the lowest astringency and at the same time gave the lowest bitter

taste and low level of sour and burnt tastes. At 150C roasting temperature, the

desirable cocoa flavor was at its optimum. Correlation coefficients among

certain volatile flavor and sensory characteristics of cocoa beans and dark

chocolate were significant (P 0.05).

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

Thank you Brad. When I was roasting with the women's groups, we were constantly checking them as they got closer to end. I noticed that the beans were not quite done, they were still a little moist and slightly rubbery. Then they were finished, they were more crisp in their bite. They were also a little dark on the outside before my mentors thought they were done.

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

I've been following this thread with interest.

I'm going to weigh in here briefly....

In my opinion, next to fermentation THE most important step in developing the flavour of chocolate is roasting, and THE best way to determine what's going on while roasting is to SMELL what's going on during the roast. 80% of your sense of taste comes from your sense of smell, which is why you can't taste anything when your nose is plugged.

Having said that, ignore the time you are roasting for, and pay attention to what your NOSE has to say about the roast.

During a typical roast, the first smell that you encounter (usually about the 1st 10-20 minutes or so) is a nice "brownie baking" smell. From there, the beans start to smoke a bit, and a very acidic/vinegary smell develops, which overpowers the "brownie" smell. At times when we're roasting, the smell in our shop becomes so acidic that my staff's eyes water a bit. This is the important stage where the acids and some of the tanninsare being driven off the beans.

Eventually, as the acids decrease, the smell then again returns to a richer, brownie baking smell, with acidic undertones. This is usually during the last 1/3 of the roast.

Our roasts (using a convection oven), are usually between 45 and 77 minutes at about 300 degrees F. Our porcelana is VERY acidic, and requires the longest roast. In order to prevent burning, we actually reduce the temperature after 50 minutes, to 250 degrees - just enough to continue driving off the acids, but preventing the beans from burning.

With regard to bitterness and astringency, there's not a lot you can do with those characteristics through roasting or conching. Those two characteristics are of beans that have not been properly fermented. At least that's been my experience.

So... In conclusion, roast your beans at a lower temperature, and listen to what your nose has to say about what's going on. Only then can you really nail down the flavour profiles of the beans you are working with.

Cheers.

Brad

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

A general rule i use for grinding in a spectra 10 is 2hours grinding for every 500g of nibs into liquor, this makes it fine enough, then add the extra stuff, cocoa butter, sugar, milk powder etc and then you need about 12h for every 1kg of chocolate youare making to get the fineness, but depending on origin you will grind / conch for longer.

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

Yeah , you wil certainly have a shorter roast profile if you are roasting nibs too

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

Dear Daniel,

We tested also some DR beans (organic), did two roastings, one starting at 150 C for 8 minutes and than to 130 C for another 17 minutes (25 in total). This restulted in excellent aroma, no bitterness in the nibs. The other roasting was a bit higher temp and longer, but the nibs lost a bit the cocoa and other aroma's. I think you should not go too high with the roasting, otherwise it will turn bitter, also not too long. We didn't make chocolate yet from these beans.

Best regards

Rodney Nikkels

Chocolatemakers,

Amsterdam, Holland

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

Hi Tom !

We have just tried to roast our DR beans a little bit more. We roasted 100gr of nibs. 5 min at 170C, and 10 min. at 150 and 10 min at 130C. I compared the results with my first roasted beans, and what a difference !!! The first beans were very acid, and these ones have lost the acidity and they had chocolate taste.

I tried also something: I continued to roast some of the beans another 5 min. and I found that it was too much.

Thank you very much for your advices !

I am still waiting my grinder and I am wondering if 48h will be ok for the chocolate liquor. What do you think ? I will not add additional butter or emulsifiers.

P.S. sorry for my english it's not very good

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

I agree that your roast sounds a little light for the DR, however, I must tell you that in my roasting pan the beans sit about two to three deep, hence my stirring. If you have them one bean deep they heat and roast a bit quicker.I have not worked with Rio Caribe yet, but it will undoubtedly be less tannic. I would probably do something like 5 min at 170 then 20 min at 150 with no resting in the oven, I would be tasting the beans all the time to find the best end point though. I taste the beans regularly to assess how long, a good way, well the way I do it is to take out two beans, one on the big side and one on the smaller side, shell them and pop them both in my mouth with about a quarter of a teaspoon of sugar then chew it around for a bit without swallowing. With practice and knowledge of the flavours in your finished chocolate you can get a very good read on how the roast is progressing with this method. It is also really good for detecting two things, astringency and bitterness. The key is to keep chewing to get the paste nice and fine only then can you really start to 'taste' where your roast is at in terms of astringency and bitterness. Roasting is the best bit, I think, a new bean origin, a new challenge, and the house smells so damn good!

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

Tom, Thomas, thank you very much to share your experience with these beans. It's so usefull for me ! So, I think, that I have to roast these beans more than 20min if the temperature is 130C. I will try later to roast the beans at higher temperatures and for 40 minutes at least, and I will compare the results.

The other type of beans I wil use is Rio Caribe, Venezuela. Have you ever worked with this type of beans ?

Thank you in advance !

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

10-15% milk powder is a good start for a dark milk choc. I findaround 10%for DR type beans and more for fruity beans like Madagascar.

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

I recently bought a small cocao town melanger and have made a dozen or so micro batches in the last month or so. Using mostly Hispanola from the DR and brought back some Sanchez and a couple of pounds "80%" Hispanola. These women cooperatives roasted, milled, winnowed and did a gritty grind and make them into 4oz balls. I also had the chance to translate this summer and see how beans are roasted in a small factory using a continuous method.

Temperatures were much lower. They set the factory roaster at around 170 C to have 115-120 C on the beans. Around 250 F. One women's group uses a pizza type oven and was going toward 350F and burning them. They were putting them in a cold oven and letting it sit for a couple of hours without attending to them. I did a roast with them and the temperatures ranged from 250F - 320F and I had it as low as it would go. It took 45 minutes in a hot oven. The other women's group is roasting in a big open cast iron pot with wood. I measured temperatures around 300F as it reached it's peak. It was about an hour as the pot warmed up and 40-45 for the remaining batches.

I am running out of paste and will have to start buying beans and I appreciate this discussion.

I did one batch of milk chocolate and wondered what percentage of milk powder do you use?

I haven't been aging my chocolate either. Too eager to start using it.

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

No worries on the help.

Maria, I have used this bean from Chocolate Alchemy, many years ago, I found it was quite astringent bean, in fact so astringent that it curdled milk when I used it to make hot chocolate. It is definitly one that needs 'resting'. I think from memory it was a cooler longer roast I used on this bean. I just looked it up in my notes and it was 800g of beans in one tray for5 min (170degreesC), 27 min (150degreesC) and then turn oven (kitchen convection)off and leave door open for 10 min then take out of oven and cool (I stir the beans every 5 mins or so during the roasting). I find this last resting in the oven with it off and the door open really developes some good chocolatey notes in the beans and reduces some of that bitterness(some beans that is, not all,I tend to use it on this type of bean and in Vanuatu as it is quite tannic too).

Dark milk chocolate is a great chocolate, if you are setting up a business. For the Australian taste, this is the type of chocolate I would be selling, it is by far and away what people here that taste my chocolate like the best.

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

Tom and Maria, thank you is all I can say.Roasting and resting will be focal points for the next go!

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

Hi Tom ! Thank you for this information and the advice for dark milk chocolate.

I use Domenican Republic cocoa beans, type Hispaniola, and I don't roast them more than 20 minutes. Did you use this type of beans ?

Daniel: thanks for your answer ! I don't use a Juicer, I bought a grinder from CocoaT, I didn't use it yet. But I don't think that if you pass the roasted nibs through the juicer, they become bitter. I think that you have to try to roast the beans at lower temperatures, between 260F - 300F.

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

I agre with Maria, aging will allow the bitterness to 'settle', I age mine after tempering but I don't think it really matters. Some origins get very bitter if you roast them too long, I have found this pronounced in beans from peru and the philippines and to some extent with vanuatu. Roasting shorter and cooler is the solution here. As a general rule astringency deacreases with roasting and bitterness increases so you just got to find the sweet spot. One more thing you can do if it is all to bitter is to make a dark milk chocolate, even just a little milk powder in the formulation can reduce bitterness significantly.

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

WOW. Thank you. I am literally just starting and your insight is quite helpful. In our brief exchange you have helped me realize a couple of my mistakes. 1)I am roasting at too high a temp (350 F until I hear the beans crack) and 2) not allowing the chocolate to rest.

How many times do you pass the roasted nibs/liquor through the processor? Is there such a thing as too much?

I wish you the best of luck in your business!

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

Hi again Daniel,

I am just starting my business, I don' t have a lot of practical experience. I know that roasting is very important and if the temperature is high the beans become very bitter; what is the temperature and the time you chose ?

You write that you use different type of beans, and do you find that all are bitter or just some of them ?

I use also a convection oven, I roast the beans at 130C for 20minutes, and I think it's ok.

I learnt that after conching resting is necessary to remove bitterness, I think 2-3 weeks is good, at room temperature. And only then you can temper it.

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

Maria- Thank you! I've been experimenting with a number of different types of beans. I have a convection oven for roasting. I have not been letting it rest. How longdo you recommend after conching? What is the best"resting"/storage method? Do you let it rest and THEN temper it? Agasin, thank you.

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

What type of beans do you use ? How do you roast the beans ?

After grinding, and conching, does your chocolate rest for some days or weeks ? This time is necessary to eliminate bitterness and acidity.

Bitterness

Posted in: Tasting Notes

I am struggling some with "bitterness". My thinking is that I am running the nibs through the Juicer too many times trying to get the cocoa liquor yield up.

Could this be the cause of the bitterness? If so, howmany passes should I run?

Thanks for any feedback.

updated by @Daniel Mollsen: 04/13/15 07:53:35

Question about grinding and conching

Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Hello Clay !

Thank you very much for all the information. I learnt a lot of things from what you wrote. So, conching is very particular and personal process. It's up to me to determinate the taste that I am looking for. Very creative process !

Thank you again !

Question about grinding and conching

Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Maria: There is no direct correlation between conching time and quality across machine types. Modern conches are built in a way to produces very high quality results in surprisingly short periods of time.

How long you conche depends on a lot of factors, based on the flavor profile you are looking to achieve. The beans you use provide the starting point, and proper roasting is the first phase. Different roasts will bring out different flavors which will be affected differently by the conching. When starting out, check every hour for the first 4-8 hours and you will be astonished at the change. From there, every couple of hours for the next 24-36 hours (if you are using one of the CocoaTown machines or Santha, or longitudinal conche).

The challenge is to get the flavor you want in the same time frame as getting the texture right. You can overdo either quite easily.

The key point is that 72 hours (or 96 hours) is not better because it's longer. It's very possible that at 72 hours all of the "life" in the chocolate will be evaporated out. As a chocolate maker, it's up to you to determine what results you're looking to achieve and to experiment until you hit upon the combination of times and temperatures that deliver the results you want. You want to conche for exactly the right amount of time that is correct for the chocolate you are making. It may be different for different chocolates.

One thing you can do to affect conche times is to blow (warm) air into the conche bowl. This can accelerate the evaporation of undesirable aromas (such as acetic acid). This can shorten conche times by getting flavor development ahead of texture development.

Question about grinding and conching

Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Hi Mark,

thank you for you advices ! I will try to conch for more than 48 hours, to see the difference. May be later if I buy another grinder or a conche, I can do it easily and all the time.

Question about grinding and conching

Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Traditionally chocolate was conched for 72 hours. If you continue to conch, I've tried for 5 days, the flavor continues to change, developing some very nice notes. The rate of change starts to plateau outin 72 hrs, why it was how long tradition did it. Try a batch, pulling once a day for the 5 days. You'll be amazed. It comes down to your desired taste, versus how long you can afford to do it.

Question about grinding and conching

Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Hi Duffy,

Thank you very much for your answer. So in less than 48 hours I can have some good chocolate. As I don't want to add emulsifiers I was worried that I had to grind and refine the liquor more than 48 hours.

Hope that I will have my grinder soon !

Thanks again !

Question about grinding and conching

Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Hi Maria,

I have a Cocoa Town grinder and I normally grind the nibs by themselves for 12 hours before adding sugar and heat. AFter 12 hours you should have something pretty tasty and it should also improve over the next hours. Give it 24 hours and keep tasting every hour or so until you think it is ready. The amount of time you need depends on how you like your chocolate and how long you can wait!

Duffy

Question about grinding and conching

Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Hello !

I am just starting a small business ( beans to bars) in Bulgaria. I will use the grinder from CocoaT and I would like to ask you how long it takes the process of grinding and developing flavours. 2 days is ok ? or more ?

Hope that people who use the same grinder, can give me more information.

Thank you in advance !

Maria

updated by @Maria6: 04/11/25 09:27:36

SPAGnVOLA Chocolate

Posted in: Tasting Notes

Came across their website today and it looks fantastic. As anyone tried their chocolate. This couple is my role model.

If you can so a google search, can't copy and paste web address.

updated by @Thomas Forbes: 05/01/15 01:53:27

What's your dream machine?

Posted in: Opinion

It's my pleasure. Let us know what you end up getting and how it is working for you when you are start enrobing. There is a definitely an adjustment period while you figure out how the machine works. After that, you will be happy you have an enrober.

updated by @Daniel Herskovic: 01/28/15 21:10:05

What's your dream machine?

Posted in: Opinion

Hi Lana,

I've seen the Selmi's vibrating table with scraper in action and that seems pretty convenient. If Perfect can create that for you, that seems like a good thing to consider.

I really don't know too much about the other features. What I can tell you is that when you are enrobing with a wheel machine, it is good to have the tempering unit at least half full of chocolate. If you are planning on a very long enrobing session , it is good to have another source of melted chocolate. I simply use a 6kg Mol D'art melter full of chocolate and that keeps me stocked enough at my current capacity which is around 3500 bon bons per enrobing session.

What's your dream machine?

Posted in: Opinion

Hi Lana, I also have the Perfect and have the cover. I usually don't run with the cover down. I like to see what is going on and it seems like one piece is aways flipping over at just the wrong time. Unlike Daniel, I rarely take my machine apart. When I am finished for the day and not planning on using it the next day, I just shut it down after running the belt with the blower on for a few minutes. I definitely would get the cover. It has a ceramic heater in it to help keep everything melted. Don't expect an operators manual. There are a few pages of instructions, but not much in the way of help. You will have to figure out most everything on your own. I spent 3 months fighting the temperature, figuring that the machine just wasn't made to maintain temp like I wanted. With a little experimenting, I found that the temp probe was wired backwards! After that was corrected, it was much better. Oliver is very good at trouble shooting on the phone As Daniel has said, it is a basic machine. It does most everything I need it to. Freight to Utah was about $700, 18 months ago. That included customs. I also have an 80# Hilliard without the enrober. I think the Perfect is about as easy to temper as the Hilliard. When running the enrober for several hours, I have to add melted chocolate to keep the level up. I just pour this through the wire belt.

What's your dream machine?

Posted in: Opinion

Hi Lana,

Congratulations on getting close to a big purchase. I do indeed have a polycarbonate cover on my compact coater. I bought my machine used -- I believe my machine was built in 1999. It did not come with a the heating element that is now offered on the cover. If I were to buy a new machine, I would definitely go for that extra option. This kind of heating element is found on some of the much more expensive Savy Goiseau and LCM machines. I imagine It will help keep your belt free of any chocolate build up.

Event though I have the cover, I often enrobe with the cover open. I like to enrobe in a warm room, around 70 degrees. There are winter days when I need the cover -- For example, when someone opens the door on a very cold day, the room temperature really drops. Having a good cover is like having 4 wheel drive on my car. I don't use it often, but when I need it I am glad that I have it. Getting a heated cover can only help you more. Good luck with your decision!

What's your dream machine?

Posted in: Opinion

Mike,

Thanks for your comments. Can you tell us how one prevents chocolate build up on the Selmi while enrobing? That was the only flaw I saw in the Selmi.

What's your dream machine?

Posted in: Opinion

I own a Prefamac 30 kg wheel machine with enrober, detailer and blower. Takes some practice to operate but am quite happy with the results I get. Sure, you do get more bells and whistles with a more expensive machine with automatic tempering, but you are going to pay $10k to $15k more. I don't have any issues with keeping the chocolate in temper as Daniel mentions; as long as you know how to work with chocolate it's pretty easy to keep temper all day. With two people operating the machine, I can do 800-1,000 pieces an hour. With the ceramic heat lamps that can be placed close to the chocolate, there is no or very little buildup on the belt or elsewhere even with the blower running.You can read more of my responses on this forum.. http://www.thechocolatelife.com/forum/topics/if-selmi-is-the-cadala...

What's your dream machine?

Posted in: Opinion

The plastic cover is available on the Selmi but it's not the cover that provides all the warmth to melt the chocolate at the end of your session. Savy also has a heater (it's in the picture if you know where to look). When you get your training on the Selmi, they will show you how to avoid the buildup at the end of your session. Really easy.

What's your dream machine?

Posted in: Opinion

I have seen on some pictures of the Selmi enrobing line set up that you can have a cover.

http://selmi-chocolate.it/images/products/tunnel_300_400.jpg .

What's your dream machine?

Posted in: Opinion

Thanks George,

That makes sense. I believe that having a heat shield on an enrober is a definite plus. The Savy and the LCM both have it. It is especially helpful when your room gets a little to cold. My little Perfect enrober actually has a polycarbonate shield. That's an option that you can order for the machine.

What's your dream machine?

Posted in: Opinion

The reason why the Selmi will be prone to chocolate build up is because there is no plastic cover over the belt. If you look at the two pictures below, you will see the Savvy has a plastic cover over the belt, which creates a warm atmosphere which keeps all the chocolate on the belt melted, whereas the Selmi does not have this feature.

http://tomric.com/image/cache/data/equipment/A-1300A-500x500.jpg

http://solegraells.com/tienda/images/101027.jpg

A top chocolatier once told me the Savvy is the machine to have, however it is even more expensive than the Selmi.

What's your dream machine?

Posted in: Opinion

Hi Pierre,

Sounds like you have an interesting decision. I hear good things about the hilliards in terms of their reliability and how easy it is to replace missing parts (through a simple visit to the hardware store). I have never seen one in action, but checked out the website just a few minutes ago. The Hilliards Compact Coater seems like a good system. I notice there are a good number of used Hilliards on the market. Should you ever plan a trip to Chicago, just let me know and I can hopefully show you my enrober in action. Hopefully, this will be your last holiday season hand dipping!

What's your dream machine?

Posted in: Opinion

Daniel,

Thank you for your great response. I've been away from the site for a few days hand dipping. LOL. Your last paragraph is exactly where we are at out shop. We currently have three Hilliards (Papa bear, Momma Bear and Baby Bear or Little Dipper) and have worked through the tempering issues with them. Jim @ Hilliards has been a great help with that. We too are dreaming of a Selmi under the Christmas Tree but don't expect one. We are hanging in there with production, but are at the point where we need an enrober to get to the next level. As I mentioned we looked at the Perfect Enrober in Philly, we looked at the Hilliard's 6" coater and at other options. We don't have the capital to just order a Selmi, but we need to look at all options to bridge the gap. That is why your response was so helpful. We know that any machine takes time to learn and tweak to fit our needs. We are doing molded, truffles, hard ganaches, etc, so we need a well rounded machine. I had also heard the negative comments about the wheel and over-crystalization so it was good to hear that with a little practice and patience it works fine.

You gave me much info so now I have another potential option. Will see if there are any used enrobers out there. Wish us luck.

Again, many thanks for all of your time .

Pierre

What's your dream machine?

Posted in: Opinion

Hi Lana,

Thanks for responding to the post. Overall, I think the Selmi machines are great and I would certainly consider it as the next machine I might get. I focus mostly on enrobed items versus molded so the function of the enrober is paramount for me. Selmi seems to be extremely versatile and probably has the dosing device you are looking for. As for the belt not staying warm, I just saw that it had a lot of build up at the end of the enrobing session. With that said, it enrobed great. I would love it if other selmi owners or a rep could comment on keeping the belt warm as these people know the machines a lot better than me. As for the Perfect enrober, I don't get a lot of build up. There is no heating device on the belt itself; however, I do keep an eye on it and will use the heat gun to keep it in check. As I mentioned, I also have the blower often operating at a warm temperature so that probably helps too.

If I could pick a dream machine, it would probably be a LCM enrober which are made in Germany. Even if I had the money, what could keep me from getting one is that there does not seem to be a lot of technical support in the USA should something happen. That's just my assumption. Another benefit of the Selmi is that technical support seems pretty good here in the states.

I look forward to hearing what you decide is best for your business. Considering that you have a lot of experience hand tempering and hand dipping, I am sure that you will be successful with whatever machine you decide to get.