Forum Activity for @Thomas Forbes

I have not been out to visit the Mast brothers since last fall but have bought some of their bars since at a variety of locations. I like it but am still a novice. I also love what they are doing and hope to somewhat replicate what they are doing but working within the Dominican Republic. The whole pricing and grading thing will be closely examined on my next trip to the DR after having the ability to ask the right questions, primarily from participating on this board. Last summer I bought a 100 pound bag of fermented (Hispanola in the DR) beans from Cooproagro (formally block 1 of Conacado) for about US$190. The commodity price was around $3,000 at the time and farmers were getting around $144 for 100 lbs. for Sanchez which is unfermented and around $158 for fermented. All the fermentation, beyond a couple of farmers in the areas I work, is done by the bigger producers or the farmer cooperatives. Farmers are now encouraged to get the cacao wet to one of these fermentation centers but I still do not know how that is priced from the farmer's perspective. The price for cacao is pretty much the same whether a farmer is a member of a cooperative, associated with a major producer or sells independently from what I know. I will have more to add in July.

About a year ago I read an article somewhere and then saw a video on the Mast Brother's website about them bringing, I think 20 tons of beans from the DR to NYC on a sailing ship. Very interesting and on one of the bags I saw the name of the farmer's cooperative in the DR. About 3 weeks into my trip and after asking around at Conacado, I rode my motorcycle and found the Red de Guaneco and spoke with a women who manages the cooperative. Found out that there has been 5 or 6 Peace Corps volunteers who have worked with the community over the last decade and the last two or three focused on supporting the cooperative. US AID funded much of the construction of the buildings, fermentation boxes, and the plastic covered drying areas. They sell dried beans, and cacao powder which is processed for them in country, and she will make you hot chocolate to drink when you visit. It is a mini version of the blocks which feed into Conacado. There is a list of the 100 members of the Red and how much cacao each supply. I did not get details about grading and pricing but discussed their dealings with Mast Brothers and Taza where I also saw a video implying they developed and supported the farmers in this cooperative without mentioning Peace Corps or US AID.

The big players like Rizek, Roig, Munne, and Hermanos Cortes may also supply them quality beans but I seriously doubt the farmer is getting more than their $158 for 100 pounds (now it is less) of beans which are fermented in the cooperative. The cooperative then receives US$800 a ton more than the commodity price for Hispanola when sold on the open market.

I would love to know what Hector Rizek sells his beans for to Michel Cluizel for the Los Ancones bar which has the Rizek's ID'ed on the back. When you open up the book on chocolate sold in the store, a big picture of Don Rizek is on the first page looking over a couple workers on a farm.

This is a very interesting topic, but in what wayare their claims any differentdifferent than "re-melters/Fonduers" claiming to make chocolate when all they make are confections out of chocolate, or large companies claiming "artisan" products, or using "fair trade" or "organic" as a marketing tool?

If it were Nestle' or Cargill, or Callebaut who started boasting about prices paid such as that I would be concerned, and I'm sure someone would call them to task. However, the Mast Brothers following / production capacityis so infinitesimally small in the whole grand scheme of of even New York chocolate consumption (let alone US chocolate consumption), that it will have virtually no impact on what happens in the chocolate industry.

For those of us who are in the industry, actually "making" chocolate, it's good to know what others are doing and saying, and at the very least prepare our answers if the question arises. However, the overall impact of what a micro chocolatier says or does hardly creates a ripple in the pond, so my position is why worry about it? I think I'll wait to circle the wagons when Nestle' makes such an outlandish claim.

Someone wise once told me to stop sweating the small stuff....

Just my thoughts...

Brad

There are a number of very interesting points here - which was the purpose of making the post in the first place, to encourage discussion on what I find to be a very interesting and surprisingly (to those not familiar with cocoa pricing) controversial. To make people THINK about how fine chocolate is being marketed.

It's important to keep in mind that most of the people who watch the video are not sophisticated and don't know what paying 10x market price means in dollar terms - and will neither question the assertion or think about what it means. They will naively assume that the farmers are getting all (or at least the major part) of the difference and that the Mast Brothers are making great strides in supporting the farmers wherever they buy their cocoa beans - when in actual fact they may not be. This makes it more difficult for other chocolate makers who (now) may be called upon to "justify" the "low" prices they pay for their beans.

I will argue that the assertion (paying 10x market price) without any supporting context is harmful to everyone - consumers, chocolate makers, and farmers.

Over on Twitter the following points were brought up by Colin Gasko:

1) Just mentioning a price, out of context, raises expectations in a potentially very unproductive way. [ Farmers are competitive and when they hear that someone is getting a higher price than they are, they want to get the higher price. When the higher price is "justified" as a result of an external certification that requires extra work, the difference can be explained in a way that the farmer can understand. If they're willing to make the investment, then they can earn the higher price as well. ]

2) The increased price has to be tied to something tangible - preferably an increase in quality and consistency. [ Paying for nothing accomplishes very little, and, counterintuitively, may do more harm than good. ]

Context is important. Without context it's impossible to assess the meaning and value of the assertion. It should be easy to provide the context - what about it, Mike and Rick?

After watching the video I don't get the impression that he implies the 10x price common or even paid to the farmer itself.

He seems to mention they have paid up to 10 times the regular price, but not necessarily that it is the regular practice. Iguess finding a unique origin or testing new ones can justify paying a 10x higher price for beans. If you look at online sources for fine beans, prices are way over the regular market price. This is a good way to familiarize oneself with new beans.

It is true that we shouldn't care about what they say they are paying, but the members of this community are the only ones that are going to catch that type of exaggeration, one which would otherwise leave the general public thinking the Mast Brothers are saints pouring money on poor farmers, which could potentially sway consumers to choose them over X, Y, or Z chocolate brand....exaggerating a fishing story is one thing, but it is a little different when you're talking about what your business does (remember the debate over whether TCHO is bean to bar?).

I also agree with Jim that there is no reason to dig up dirt, but the statement was made in public, so to me its fair game to pick apart, as long as everything stays factual.

good point jim. It is very easy for those of us making chocolate to be nit picky and catty about what others do in this industry. Its really none of my business what the mast brother pay or say they pay for their beans.

I am still amazed what folks will pay at POP retail for chocolate. That, in itself, leads me to believe that the education of the consumer, through both private and public channels, has reached a noteworthy state.

As far as claims made about the cost of purchasing beans at a super-premium price, let's allow the truth to filter to the surface instead of digging for it. We must be professional in our pursuit of excellence and careful about the time spent monitoring the activities of others. Big world, lots of customers, do what you do and stay the course.

PS - look to Guatemala for some big breakthroughs in both crop maintenance and drying/fermentation practices in the next two years. Some money is being invested and it will improve the quality of their already interesting bean crop.

Theoretically it IS possible to pay that much for cocoa beans and still make craft chocolate at a profit. The finished price of the chocolate per lb (transport costs included) will be somewhere around $12-13 per lb. Given that their bars are 70 grams +/- they will get 6.5 bars per lb and at $10 per bar that's $65 per lb retail, putting their food cost at roughly 20% - 10% lower than the standard in the food industry.

Personally, I think paying that much for cocoa beans is foolish, and bragging about it is even more foolish.

The most I've ever paid for cocoa was $10k USD per tonfor my Chuao, but that also came with the ability to say that it is the legendary chuao. Jeff is correct that the average for premium beans is around $5k per ton.

This is of coursejust my opinion.

Brad

Highly unlikely those prices were paid anywhere, to anyone....

premium prices run about $5k+ a MT for FTO....and they arent saying they use FTO are they?

For what its worth, I paid $11 for a bar of their single origin Dominican Republic in Los Angeles, one of the only places I have seen it in my area (not that I have scoured the state for it, but its not for sale in my town).

If they are paying those prices, and its true that they process about 1 full bag a day (~50,000lbs/year; according to an interview--I need to get a reference for it though), that is a lot of money per year to shell out, especially when picking it up by sail boat!

I rarely take a public position when it comes to chocolate companies, but a recent statement in a BusinessInsider.com video  brought me up short. Before I go on, I do have to say that what Rick and Mike - and everyone involved - have done is phenomenal. They were in the right place at the right time with the right product with the right ethos, capturing the cultural zeitgeist perfectly - guiding and riding it expertly.

But I have never been a huge fan of the chocolate they make, or more properly, their skills as chocolate makers. I don't mind vintaging in wine where the differences in a particular bottle occur from year to year. My issue with the Mast Brothers stems from the fact that I never know what I am going to get from batch to batch of what is ostensibly the same chocolate. If I find a decent bar and go back several weeks later to get another of the same, it will be different. Sometimes very different. And sometimes difficult to recognize as being the same chocolate. Yeah, I know, small batch variability and all that. When the Mast Brothers are on, they turn out good chocolate - but too often I am left wondering what all the fuss is about. I've even had bars with rancid nuts, purchased fresh from the factory store.

Going back to the video: At just after 3:00 minutes in, Rick claims that they've paid up to 10x the average price for commodity beans (and 3x-5x market price more generally).

Last Friday's spot closing price was $2352.94 per MT (metric ton, 1000kg), down from over $2800/MT in November, 2011. If what Rick is saying is true, then at some point in the last six months they paid between $23,000 and $28,000/MT for beans. 18 months ago, 10x market would have been nearly $40,000/MT.

Really? I'd like to see the paperwork supporting those claims.

If it's true, and the farmer actually received 10x market for their beans , then that's good news and I will be the first out the gate to let people know about it.

But - if it's not true - what are the implications and potential ramifications for the craft chocolate industry? Not just for the Mast Brothers, but for every craft chocolate maker who is trying hard to improve the lives and livelihoods of the cacao farmers they source from.

Your Thoughts?

*****

Do some math. Is it possible to pay $25,000/MT for beans and make a 2.5 oz (71gr) bar of chocolate that can be sold (profitably) for $7?

At $25,000/MT raw, whole beans in multiton quantities costabout $11.35 per pound. By implication in the video, that money is paid to the farmer and therefore would not include customs, insurance, freight, and other costs, so the calculation understates the actual landed price of the beans and therefore the following cost basis is low.

Assume an 80% yield on those beans (i.e., every 100 lbs of beans yields 80 lbs of usable nib after roasting and winnowing - this is generous) raises the price per pound of nib to about $14.15. Assuming a 70% cocoa content chocolate, that means that the cost of just the cocoa nib component of a pound of chocolate is north of $9.90 - also assuming zero loss in the process of making the finished product.

James, I realize that I'm not as focused getting the air bubbles out, rather I rushed to chill them. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

Mark, will a coca butter spray before molding work or is that overkill? Thanks.

If the mold was dirty, or you did not remove all of the air bubbles sometimes the chocolate simply sticks.

Also how did you temper the chocolate. If you did not mix the chocolate sometimes the tempering does not remain stable and will stick to the mold. Lastly wipe down the mold with QTips to remove any dirt, dust, remaining chocolate. I agree with Mike Nolan. Most likely the chocolate was not stirred properly and untempered chocolate does not release from the mold.

Hope this helps

Jim

The moulds should be just below the temperature of your tempered chocolate. If too cold it will crystallize in less stable forms. You can get the same thing if cooled too quickly. Skin temperatures are about 92F, making it hard to warm up too much in the time to fill.

Not only water in the moulds, but water spots will also make them stick.

Leave a cocoa butter film in the moulds, this will help not only with release but shine.

Thanks, Mark. I used a tempering machine and all but that one piece came out easily. My guess is that that individual impression might have gotten warm from the way I was holding it as I filled all the other individual impressions. Next time, Ill try putting the molds on an elevated stand so I dont have to hold when filling.

Sounds to me like it could have been one of a few things,

1) Has the chocolate been stirred sufficiently, if not there could be a spot of warm untempered chocolate which wouldn't release from the mould.

2) Is the mould totally dry, if there is moisture in the mould this will cause problems when demoulding.

3) Could the mould be warm on one impression, this could

detemper the chocolate when filling the mould.

My guess is it's no.1

Yesterday, made my second batch of chocolate molds using three pounds of dark chocolate. All the pieces came out of the molds perfectly, except for one peice. Even after staying in the refrigerator overnight, it remained stuck in the Belgium-made mold. Could someone give me an idea of what might have caused this, and how to prevent it in the future. Thank you so much, Beth.

Thank you!

COCOAROMA is no longer in print but you can order back issues.

Does anyone know if there is there a magazine/publication for bean-to-bar chocolate manufacturing or chocolate manufacturing in general?

Thanks.

Hi Patti,

I'm in the UK, so there isn't a Trader Joe's nearby to me. There are some bargain shops that sell names like Lindt relatively inexpensively, though. I'll see what they have on offer.

I think for the moment, I just want to get started with tempering - I'm not fussed about making anything yet - I just want to get the tempering right before I do anything else.

James, if there is a Trader Joe's near you, you can get pretty good quality dark chocolate for about $5/ pound. I use their pound plus bars for some things and they have worked well. They are rather thick when melted compared to a good couverture but they are an excellent price to start experimenting with! Have fun!

Hi Antonino,

Thanks for the reply - I'll stick to non-vegetable fat chocolates for experimenting. Presumably that's the only thing that matters when choosing chocolate?

HI There,

you cannot temper vegetable fat based "chocolate", it doesnt work.

to temper you don't need 10 kg chocolate, but as small as 100gr.... and even if ou mess up the tempering, you just need to re-melt and start again!

"experiment" with compound chocolate will not teach you anything....

best of luck!

Antonino

Hi everyone,

So, I'm interested in experimenting with chocolate, to see what I can do with it and if it's as interesting as I think it is.

I'd rather not spend a lot of money on expensive couverture, in case I spoil the chocolate. Can I experiment with tempering using cheaper chocolate, like Cadbury's or Galaxy? I'm wondering if the vegetable fat might be an issue.

Clay I am sorry I missed this post.

We operate in Miami Area and have a warehouse where we manufacture all our confections and sell online/deliver or ship out of state.

next time you are in Miami please send us an email to ricardot@caochocolates.com / www.caochocolates.com and look forward to meeting you.

thanks for putting this website together for all of us chocolate lovers to meet and share ideas/knowledge.

Though not in Miami/Orlando/Keys, one person whose work constantly impresses is Norman Love. His workshop is in Ft Myers and there is an outpost in Tampa.

Is there a chocolatier we MUST see while being in Orlando or Miami or somewhere on the Keys?

I am looking for input on what others have encountered with regard to NSF requirements on equipment.

We are currently looking at retail space and would be incorporating chocolates on a very small scale for now. It appears that our health department is going to require everything to be certified. I currently own a ChocoVision Rev 2 which is the size I want to be using, but of course it isn't certified. I don't want to move to a larger machine at this time.

So has anyone encountered a problem with using the smaller machines? Has it even been questioned in other jurisdictions?

The only thing I can see about the Rev 2 that might cause her to question is the joint between the baffle and the sensor, but it appears that the next machine up (which is certified) has the same set up between the baffle and sensor.

So, is this a case of it just isn't worth it to the company to go through the certification process? or is there really a reason the smaller machines are not certified? Any suggestions or arguments for the health department if it does become an issue?

Thanks much,

Thanks for all the sharing guys! I'm still using a pastry cutter but look forward to making a variation on one of these someday

Rather than a _guitar_ cutter, I made what is best called a _washtub bass_ cutter.

I used the best $25 hacksaw frame sold at home depot, and stretched stainless steel wire across the prongs that hold the blade.

The trick is to get a saw with _smooth_ prongs, and to wrap the wire around the prong a couple of times and then twist around itself to lock.

It takes a couple of tries to get the knack of it so that the wire can be tightened enough.

To deal with the wire having to pass below the slab, I used a firm foam with food safe material (plastic wrap) above it.

At first I would just use this for freehand cuts, but then I built a guide frame. This is just a pair of waterjet cut 'combs' screwed to some cutting board material.

I am only using this at home; in the commercial kitchen I'd probably use an NSF rated saw (they make them for butchers) and I would need to figure out different pad materials.

-Jon

Caramel? Kinda/sorta if you spray "pam" on the wheels, but I just use the wheel to mark the slab. Any regular kitchen knife will work to cut caramel (Grewling's recipie) as long as you keep the knife moving.

Those are pretty cool. How do they do for cutting caramel?

No.... Wile E. Coyote was an "Acme" man, through and through......

Edward,

i think at the moment you are on the top list for the "Wile E. Coyote/Mac Gyver" Award!!!

i will try to make one as well!

Lets see if I can upload a pic of my cutter.

If the cutter is heated in the oven for a minute or two, it does a reasonable job of cutting the ganache. Cutting is best done just after a bottom is put on the slab--when it is fresh and still sticks to the paper--this way it won't get picked up by the cutter.

Hi Edward,

please share a couple of pics with us, it sounds like a cool idea.

Cheers

Nino

I have had some experience "fooling around" with a home made guitar. My attempts were with alum. "L" bar riveted together and using bicycle s/s spoke nipples and pieces of s/s spokes as the tensioning device. Problem with alum. is is that it is soft. After a few months the frame warped-- all those strings under tension probably did it. But then, if alum is soft, the rivets are even softer, and when I tightened up a few wires one fateful day, I ended up shearing off the heads of the rivets.

Thing is, in order to cut a slab of ganache, the wires have to exit the slab to make a clean cut. This means the wires have to end up below the slab when the cut is finished. To do this, I took a large nylon cutting board, and cut a series of 1/8" deep x 1/8" wide grooves in it with a table saw. This does the trick, but now I had to anchor and hinge the frame to the base, as any shifting when I pushed the frame down would make for messy cuts. And, a lot of crud gathered in the grooves of the cutting board. Probably close to 100 hours of farting around and "Wile E. Coyote Back to the drawing board" moments fooling around with this contraption, and now it sits in the attic of my garage.

I do 3 slabbed ganache varieties at work. What I use is a cutting wheel. At dollar stores, I buy a dozen s/s pizza wheels, usually 3" dia. I cut out the rivets, throw away the handles, and mount the wheels on a length of redi rod (all-thread rod) I have a lathe at home so I turn sections of hollow oak, cut them to 7/8"lengths, and space the wheels with these, make some handles, and cap off both ends with acorn nuts. Matfer has a version of this, which I un-shamefully ripped off, the 2005 catalouge listed it for over 300 USD. A picture is worth a thousand words...

After I pour out the slab, I wait until semi-firm, not fully crystalized, and then paint on a top layer of couverture, flip it over, then paint on a bottom layer. I put my contraption in the oven for a minute or so and then cut through the slab in strips, then in squares. Works quite well , and I spent far less than 10 hours making the thing.........

Hi Andy,

welding aluminum is matter of professionals, i built this frame when i just arrived in SA and i didn't know anyone. So i went the easier way to "rivet" (or bracketing) everything simply because was the only way i knew how to put it together.

Riveting is easy: drill a hole, put a rivet and with the right gun just close the rivet.

The bolts are the same as the one from the link, any engineering company is capable to drill a hole in it. Do not try at home, it will cost you so much on drill bits and time. Seriously i did all the rest of the job with the cheapest DIY tools i could find at a builder warehouse.

the frame has been put together almost 2 year ago and it hasn't yet broken into pieces... so i guess it works!

Next (just to consider it an evolution) i will buy a thick cutting block and cut the slots so it is easier /faster to cut and move the ganache.

looking forward to see yours!

Cool Antonino. It looks like you went for bracketing instead of welding it. A few other deviations from the plans you posted. Any further modified notes on how you made yours? It looks a bit easier to construct.

Here a picture of mine!

DIY is very very cheap,i would say 2 hours for shopping and 2 hours to put it together (the first one i made took me a lot longer... trial and error) if you get someone to do it (unless is a friend) it will look better but cost also more.

i use an elevated cutting board so i can push it trough the ganache.

sometimes i use it just to score the marks on a soft caramel and then cut with the knife...

still, only ca $40...... i can live with that!