Forum Activity for @Omar Forastero

Omar Forastero
@Omar Forastero
09/13/12 05:06:19
86 posts

Cooking milk powder


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Hi Sebastian,

With my experience, H2O2 is still used in processing milk powder at least for warm climate countries like here in the middle east(Im assuming india as well)Every batch we receive from our supplier gets tested for percentage of peroxidemaking sure it does not excees 0.04%. When it does exceed, the taste gets affected leaving a slight old cheese after taste..I wish I know how to better describe it. So, to answer your question, peroxide is still in business.

Sebastian
@Sebastian
09/12/12 16:17:30
754 posts

Cooking milk powder


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Interesting document - i've never seen this actually practiced in western milk plants, nor in New Zealand. Is this common practice in India? Looks like it's an early 60's publication.. i didn't read nearly the whole thing (only 1 page) so i'm certain i've missed context - i'm wondering if it might have been historical practice?

I would say that I'm *completely* unconcerned with H202 levels in modern chocolate processing....

Chirag Bhatia
@Chirag Bhatia
09/12/12 07:56:55
27 posts

Cooking milk powder


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Thank You Omar will have a look..

Omar Forastero
@Omar Forastero
09/12/12 05:48:03
86 posts

Cooking milk powder


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Hi Chirag,

Milk powder contains a chemical called hydrogen peroxide (H2O2). H2O2 is an oxidizing,bleaching and germicidal agent used to preserve milk. The percentage of peroxide in milk powder can vary from one brand to another and because its presence in milk affects the taste, it might be the challenge you are facing with your chocolate today.

Attached is a study made on hydrogen peroxide and milk powder. On page 427 You can find a detailed description onthe effects of H2O2 on the taste of milk powder.

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/monograph/WHO_MONO_48_(p423).pdf" target="_blank"> http://whqlibdoc.who.int/monograph/WHO_MONO_48_(p423).pdf

hope this helps..

Omar

ramya
@ramya
08/31/12 10:08:42
6 posts

Cooking milk powder


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

hi chirag,

instead of 'everyday' you can try 'nova whole milk powder' that works better. before you are mixing milk powder you must taste it to ensure that it is not salty. because some baches of milk powder tends to be salty. every day is a dairy whitener not milk powder.it contains added sugar also. for any other clarification you can write to me at mannachoco@gmal.com.

Chirag Bhatia
@Chirag Bhatia
05/07/12 05:29:34
27 posts

Cooking milk powder


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Thanks Felipe will try using ghee.. sounds like an interesting idea.

Thanks Sebastian that makes sense.

Sebastian
@Sebastian
05/05/12 05:24:19
754 posts

Cooking milk powder


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Store brand milk powders in India are often fortified with additional calories by adding vegetable fats to them. Often times those fats are susceptible to oxidative randicity. Might want to check your supply to see if that's causing the off flavor.

And a note, cooking milk powder in cocoa butter will likely only increase the off flavor. In order get generate the caramel flavors, you need 3 things: protein, reducing sugar, and water. Cooking in cocoa butter means you wont have the latter, and lots of heat, generally speaking, does bad things to the flavor of fats.

Felipe Jaramillo F.
@Felipe Jaramillo F.
05/04/12 17:27:48
55 posts

Cooking milk powder


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Chirag, nice to hear from milk chocolate makers worldwide.

You can try to get some caramelized flavor by substituting the milk fat in whole milk powder with Ghee. Take whole milk powder by weight (100%) and substitute with 72% skim milk powder and 28% ghee. Make sure that it has no traces of moisture by heating it above the water's boiling point.

I am one of those who believe smaller bean-to-bar chocolate makers are in debt to Indian cousine forever based on the quality of wet grinder engineering.

Felipe

Chirag Bhatia
@Chirag Bhatia
05/04/12 15:59:48
27 posts

Cooking milk powder


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Thanks for the knowledge Antonino

I live in India so my chocolate wasnt being compared to swiss chocolate..

i use nestle "everyday" brand of milk powder which is 18% fat content..

the reason i thought about cooking the powder was because i read about milk crumb which adds a cooked/caramel flavour to chocolate

i am a newbie using a stone wet grinder(santha) to refine and conch. i dont know what temperature the chocolate reaches in it.. but will now try to find a good ir thermometer to measure it..

i like thinking out of the box so do you think its possible to cook/caramalise the milk powder in cocoa butter or will thatreleasemoisture which will cause the chocolate to seize.

antonino allegra
@antonino allegra
05/04/12 13:58:22
143 posts

Cooking milk powder


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Hi There,

milk powder is already "cooked".. is made either by "rolling" milk into a big heated cylinder and then scraped off, or by spraying milk into a hot chamber to vaporize the water.

The differences between milk powders are generally : Fat content (use a 20%), what kind of cows, season, area of growth (fed with green grass, hay or whatever) ,production system.

What system of making chocolate you do use, what temperature, how do you grind/insert the milk powder to the chocolate and mailny what quality of milk you are using will affect the final taste of your product.

Do not compare to swiss milk chocolate (unless you live there), their cows make a very mild milk, and they add malt to the milk powder....

If you cook the milk powder in cocoa butter you will end up with caramel...... then we are in a different game...

Chirag Bhatia
@Chirag Bhatia
05/04/12 08:29:41
27 posts

Cooking milk powder


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

So i recently made a batch of 45% milk chocolate. The problem is that most people who tasted it said it had a raw(ish) milk taste to it, which theydidn'tlike.

That got me thinking if could i possibly roast the milk powder or maybe cook it in a little cocoa butter.

any suggestions??


updated by @Chirag Bhatia: 04/11/25 09:27:36
david roberts
@david roberts
05/23/12 13:24:41
11 posts

Help with blank transfer sheets for printing on chocolate


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Hi margaret can i ask how long you leave the sheets in the fridge til you demold them, i had problems exactly the same , i found leaving them overnight helped quite a bit,also another problem i have found with the starch sheets depends what batch you get some work better than others, i only use cocoa butter ones now from chocolate world they seem to work, ive costed the price of a new printer against the cost of wasted sheets, and a new printer every 6 months or so at a cost of around 40.00 is a savings.

Robyn Wood
@Robyn Wood
05/06/12 10:23:15
29 posts

Help with blank transfer sheets for printing on chocolate


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

It's been a while since I bought them, and I may be wrong, but what I can remember is that they are coated with a mixture of cocoa butter, gelatin, maybe some type of egg white? I can't find the info I had, but it's supposed to be a mixture of ingredients.

My thought is that since the sheets you are using don't contain cocoa butter or other fat, it doesn't melt into the chocolate when it's applied. So, it's not adhering.

margaret2
@margaret2
05/05/12 12:28:54
11 posts

Help with blank transfer sheets for printing on chocolate


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

thanks Heather, I'm sorry you're having as much trouble as I am - I feel your pain.

I've gone through 4 sets of sheets.

I did find a tutorial on another companys website - i cant remember whose - that said

Print on "glossy photo" setting

Decrease the contrast/intensity by 10 -15% (i'm guessing this is so it sits on the surface more)

Wait 1 hour after printing

have the chocolate over 90 degrees.

Wait till completely set to peel off.

I've done all this and still it's very sketchy results. Would you please post what KopyKake tells you.

They must have heard from many more than us with complaints and hopefully they're addressing it.

HeatherJ
@HeatherJ
05/05/12 05:46:00
17 posts

Help with blank transfer sheets for printing on chocolate


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

I bought the starch sheets from KopyKake a month ago - the ink prints on to them perfectly, but I've had a ZERO percent success rate at seven attempts transfer on to perfectly tempered chocolate. I've tried the upper temperature range, and no luck. I've put in a call to KopyKake also, and am waiting to hear back, but I'm not hopeful about what advice they'll give. It just doesn't seem to work. Sorry I can't add any helpful advice, but I'll be reading this thread as well to gain some!

margaret2
@margaret2
05/04/12 22:11:04
11 posts

Help with blank transfer sheets for printing on chocolate


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Thanks Robin - can you tell me if the sheets you're using are the cocoa butter coated or the starch/sugar coated ones.

Robyn Wood
@Robyn Wood
05/04/12 19:35:32
29 posts

Help with blank transfer sheets for printing on chocolate


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

I purchased my sheets from Tomric. I have never had any problems with the sheets, but have seen comments from others stating that they had gotten a bad batch, but others were fine.

The last inks I bought were from www.photofrost.com . I've had good luck with them. There is also www.tastyfotoart.com .

The main thing I've noticed is that the chocolate has to be at the high end of the temper range so that it is warm enough to have the image adhere.

I just print normally, using the best print option. I allow the sheets to dry about 1/2 hour, and mold as usual. I'm thinking unless you just got a bad batch of sheets, it's the chocolate that's causing you problems.

margaret2
@margaret2
05/03/12 19:24:49
11 posts

Help with blank transfer sheets for printing on chocolate


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

I am sooo frustrated!! with the failure rate of the blank transfer sheets

I would love to hear your experiences.

From what I understand we have two options with blank transfer sheets, 1. cocoa butter and 2. starch,sugar,emulsifier sheets.

I really want the want the sugar starch sheets to work - mostly because you can purchase in warmer months, storage and shelf life issues and I feel they're less likely to gunk up the printer.

But for the life of me I am having about a 50% failure rate and these sheets cost WAY too much ($2.00 a sheet) for that type of loss.

I have tried reducing the contrast 10% and still about 1/2 the "ink" remains on the sheet giving me a partial transfer.

I contacted KopyKake and while they got back to me right away their only suggestion was to make sure the chocolate was "warm enough"

I am using kopykake "inks" and allowing the sheets to dry at least an hour after printing before attempting the transfers. I have tried room temperature drying and cold drying (had more luck with room temperature- but not perfect)

Please share your experiences with the sheets - type - where purchased - tricks etc.

Thank you, thank you, thank you


updated by @margaret2: 04/11/25 09:27:36
Clay Gordon
@Clay Gordon
01/19/14 09:03:12
1,690 posts

Speed Control Option for Santha Spectra 11


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

Catherine -

At this level, IMO, you'd be better off buying two machines rather than one with a speed control. On a larger machine the speed control is a handy option.

One of the main differences between the Santha and CocoaTown designs at this size are in the way tension is applied. In the CocoaTown there is a hinged top that is spring loaded to provide the tension. On the Santha you tighten a nut that puts tension on the spring, which makes it adjustable tension. (This is both good and not-as-good). You can adjust the tension (good), but it's difficult to get exactly the same tension each time (which is not-as-good because it makes it difficult to put exactly the same pressure on the stones each time, leading to less-consistent results).

Catherine Policella
@Catherine Policella
05/02/12 15:23:45
1 posts

Speed Control Option for Santha Spectra 11


Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques

I am getting ready to try my handat makingbean to bar chocolate. I am considering purchasing a Santha Spectra 11 Melanger. There is alsoan option for a model of the Santhawith anaddedspeed contol. Can anyone advise me if I should purchase themodel with the speed control? Will this make a better product, what are the benifits to this? The cost of the speed controloption practially doubles the cost of the Melanger. I was also wondering about the CocoaTown Melanger in the sameprice range $500ish. Does anyonehave an opnion onwhich of these Melangers might work better or achieve a higher level of results?

Thank you for any input you may have on this topic, it is much appreciated!

Best regards,

CatherinePolicella


updated by @Catherine Policella: 04/11/25 09:27:36
Clay Gordon
@Clay Gordon
05/01/12 07:58:12
1,690 posts

Looking for a Chocolatier with experience in making truffles


Posted in: News & New Product Press (Read-Only)

Hey everyone, I created a new group over the weekend - JOBS - just for job postings. Situations Wanted and Situations Available. You do have to join the group (it's free and takes just a second) to post and to set up notifications.

Monica2
@Monica2
04/30/12 20:22:12
1 posts

Looking for a Chocolatier with experience in making truffles


Posted in: News & New Product Press (Read-Only)

Looking for someone in the MD area that would beinterestedin part-time work creating and making wonderful truffles.


updated by @Monica2: 12/13/24 12:16:07
Brad Churchill
@Brad Churchill
05/31/13 10:52:18
527 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

Chantelle;

At first I took it as a jab, and started to write one of my tyrades, but then went back, read the thread in context to what you wrote and retyped my response.

Good thing. I would have thoroughly embarrased myself.

I agree with you whole heartedly about transparency. That's what my business is all about.

From a business perspective it's also a good thing to observe a company's practices surmise why they are doing something, and then read feedback from those who have tried their product and see a correlation between what they are doing and the reasons. In this case, the locals don't like their chocolate, so they have to find other markets in order to move product.

Cheers and best wishes in your venture.

Brad

Channy
@Channy
05/31/13 08:25:27
11 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

Brad anyone might think my reply was a slight to your company and chocolate- and it wasn't. I have never tried your product, and I wasn't even comparing you Mast Brothers at all. I actually think most of their chocolates are grainy and inconsistent. That brings me back to the point of this whole conversation. Clay brought this up to make a point of the possible unrealistic claims they make as bean to bar producers, regarding their purchasing bean price. What I am saying is that this is a valuable conversation that must be had- not just because there needs to be more transparency in modern companies but also that if you are staking a big claim about potentially 'doing good for society' then your peers must not openly disagree. Secondly, and more personally, I truly want to look into bean to bar, and I want to know what other people think of what is a legitimate price to pay for good beans (and what is too high). In summary that is two reasons this conversation must be had. I'm glad It has been had
Brad Churchill
@Brad Churchill
05/30/13 23:40:44
527 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

Chantelle;

Mast Brothers ships their product. Choklat doesn't. It makes sense thatthe Mast Brotherswould be more well known, as more people all over the world have access to their chocolate. That doesn't mean their chocolate is any good though. In fact, given their very limited production ability and the fact that they are in the center of a wealthy city with a daytime population of over 8 million people and need to sell outside of their geographic region, I would seriously question their quality.

If the locals aren't buying it...

Conversely, my business is in a city 1/8th the size and we can barely keep up with demand. In fact some days I'm very happy a lot of this city still hasn't heard of my business (I don't advertise). Why would I care what the rest of the world thinks of my product or business if my supply is constantly sold out locally?

...and anything more than $10k for a ton of beans is a load of bunk in my opinion. Either that, or the buyer got played.

Brad

Channy
@Channy
05/29/13 20:26:08
11 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

I have to put my two cents in here. I am from Adelaide, South Australia, and while I have never heard or seen anything to do with Choklat outside of these forums, I have heard and seen Mast Brothers Chocolate everywhere. Even in Adelaide it's not uncommon for people to know them and any serious chocolate lover will know them. Their chocolate is stocked in at least two- three places here in South Austrlaia and countless more in Sydney and Melbourne. I have to say I really agree with Clay as I am actually considering starting my own experiments with producing chocolate and the price I should pay for Cocoa beans is very relevant. This whole discussion is very relevant, hence me sitting here reading through anything and everything about chocolate and what people think of other craft chocolate producers.
Thomas Forbes
@Thomas Forbes
05/22/12 16:25:45
102 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

Farmers in the Dominican Republic who are members of farmer's cooperatives get the market price for the cacao. The benefits are access to fermentation centers, technical assistance, ability to get certified organic and 10% of the profits from the cooperative go back into community projects. No other real advantage from what I have learned so far. The major cacao producers are also establishing similar relationships with the more medium sized farms. There are other certifications which they qualify.

I will be looking closely on how cacao is graded coming out of the farm and the price differentials. From what I have seen so far, have control over harvesting and fermentation are the key components out of control of most chocolate makers working with Dominican beans. The Rizeks are probably more advanced on a large scale, in creating a fine cacao which can identified from the farm. I know there is sourcing for cacao beans at the cooperatives but do not know to what extent. So much of what everyone handles is bulk cacao and will looking at how higher graded cacao is sourced.

I do know of three other individuals/groups who are also harvesting, fermenting and handling the entire process up to chocolate in the DR and the US.

From what I have been told, the differential for fermented cacao is about US$800 per ton above commodity prices. Any price above that is news to me.

Sunita de Tourreil
@Sunita de Tourreil
05/22/12 15:37:18
19 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

Do farmers get such high prices for Fair Trade Organic cacao? This price seems more like what you would pay for a superior grade cacao. I was under the impression that FT cacao could bring a premium of about $150 above the commodity price... and I would be surprised to hear that Organic added such a premium to cacao. Assuming a $2-3K per metric tonne price...

My understanding is that paying $5K per metric tonne is a very handsome price. Never mind paying $20-30K per metric tonne.

Sunita de Tourreil
@Sunita de Tourreil
05/22/12 15:29:46
19 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

Well done Scott. I read your series on Noka years ago and thought it was excellent. Congratulations on helping to bring more integrity and transparency to fine chocolate. Exactly why this discussion is important, we need to be consistent about information that goes out to the public, there is so much misinformation around chocolate, we all need to do what we can.

FYI: my business is about doing educational tastings in the SF Bay Area, and I am always learning more about chocolate (aren't we all?) so I appreciate this forum tremendously. I aspire to contribute more here.

Sunita de Tourreil

The Chocolate Garage

Clay Gordon
@Clay Gordon
05/16/12 06:12:24
1,690 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

After Lowe took a look at my back of the envelope math, I decided to do some more concrete modeling of the costs involved and created a spreadsheet on Google Docs for everyone to look at .

The spreadsheet takes a slightly more sophisticated look at more of the costs associated with producing a chocolate bar, not just the price of the cocoa.

The goal was not to "prove" that I was "right" (okay, I did want to make sure I was not completely off) but to provide a basic template for a pricing tool that anyone who is making chocolate (or wants to make chocolate) can use to help figure out how various different costs affect the final (retail) sale price of a bar. I have also included a three-tier distribution scheme in the pricing (broker, distributor, retailer). Obviously not everyone is going to have these three tiers (especially in the beginning), but having the costs built into the model is extremely important, IMO.

Everyone who is interested should be able to download this spreadsheet and play with it and modify it as they need to.

It's not perfect, and I know it so I am not asking people to critique it. It's still naive in the sense that it does not properly account for all costs, but at least it should give people an idea of relative contributions of various factors. Members are free to download, modify, and tinker to meet their needs.

Brad Churchill
@Brad Churchill
05/15/12 21:56:20
527 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

Thanks Thomas

Thomas Forbes
@Thomas Forbes
05/15/12 19:03:17
102 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

Mast Brothers do not use cocoa butter in their bars from their label and what they told me.

Brad Churchill
@Brad Churchill
05/15/12 18:14:34
527 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

Lowe;

Not to split hairs here, but you're assuming that the 70% cocoa content is 100% cocoa nib. It may not be. In fact very few chocolate companies use 70% beans, as the fina. cocoa butter content is too low and makes the chocolate thick and hard to work with.

I tried to look at their website to get a more accurate percentage, but there's essentially nothing about their bars on there. I would hazard a guess that it's most likely a 55/15 split between cocoa beans and cocoa butter. However this is just a guess. If I am accurate, then given the price of their beans in relation to the cocoa butter they buy, it would only bring their cost down a bit more.

Cheers.


updated by @Brad Churchill: 06/10/15 02:17:48
ChocoFiles
@ChocoFiles
05/15/12 07:51:49
251 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

Hi Clay,

I'd like to clarify some of the math that you did. You said:

"Do some math. Is it possible to pay $25,000/MT for beans and make a 2.5 oz (71gr) bar of chocolate that can be sold (profitably) for $7?

At $25,000/MT raw, whole beans in multiton quantities costabout $11.35 per pound. By implication in the video, that money is paid to the farmer and therefore would not include customs, insurance, freight, and other costs, so the calculation understates the actual landed price of the beans and therefore the following cost basis is low.

Assume an 80% yield on those beans (i.e., every 100 lbs of beans yields 80 lbs of usable nib after roasting and winnowing - this is generous) raises the price per pound of nib to about $14.15. Assuming a 70% cocoa content chocolate, that means that the cost ofjust the cocoa nib componentof a pound of chocolate is north of $9.90 - also assuming zero loss in the process of making the finished product."

It looks to me like there may be some mistakes in the calculations you used. Here are some calculations that I made:

Assume $25,000/MT

80% yield means that 1 MT yields 800 kg of cacao nibs.

So 800 kg costs $25,000.

$25,000/800 kg = $31.25/kg or $.03125/g

Mast Brothers bars are 71g.

70% of each bar is cacao so 1 bar has 49.7g of cacao.

Putting it all together: $.03125/g x 49.7g cacao = $1.55/bar for the cacao.

Add in the cost of the sugar and they still make a profit. If they paid 5x then the cost per bar is only about $0.80.

Of course, this ideal yield with no other losses, so their profit margin is still lower, but it does seem feasible.

The Mast Brothers also claimed "up to 10x" so it's not at all clear how much cacao they bought at this price. I might suspect that it was a very small percentage of their total volume.

I'm not being critical; I'm just trying to get accurate math. You're right that this was an instructive exercise to do.

I also think that you point about asking how much of this profit actually got to the farmers is spot on.

Clay Gordon
@Clay Gordon
05/14/12 12:30:36
1,690 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

Chris:

Unfortunately, the chocolate industry is not immune from manufacturers claims that don't match reality; the example of Hawaiian Vintage Chocolate immediately comes to mind. Thus, there is ALWAYS a place for questioning and criticism. As the creator and moderator of TheChocolateLife - and the creator of chocophile.com - this is something that I've been doing for well over a decade. Those who have followed my work know that I come from a place of deep respect for, and interest in growing, the craft and artisan chocolate community and markets.

Those who've followed my writings here and elsewhere know that I am skeptical of the value of the minuscule "investments" being made in sustainable cocoa production by major manufacturers.

It's important to remember that 99% of the people who see the video have no understanding of the market for cocoa - and that includes many people who consider themselves to be chocolate connoisseurs - and what the price paid for cocoa really means.

If the 10x was paid to the growers, then that's interesting to know, especially if the price paid reflected a premium for quality. However, if the price paid did not go to the grower, but went to middlemen, brokers, and/or shippers, then the statement is disingenuous and misleading in many ways - most important of which is that most people outside the chocolate industry automatically assume that growers always benefit from higher prices.

While I may have been off-target in wondering about the profitability of making a chocolate bar whose primary ingredient cost 10x market price, it is an interesting exercise to lead people through, especially for those who make, or are looking to make, chocolate from the bean. Brad's analysis is a cogent one, but I think fails to take into account the cost of doing business in New York City (much higher than Calgary).

In the end, I think that virtually all chocolate is underpriced in the sense that very few chocolate makers are paying a price for beans that represents the true cost of self-sustaining production. Chocolate lovers are in for a rude awakening over the next decade as demand increases and the supply cannot keep up, in part because of a serious lack of investment in farms in major producing areas over the past two decades. Thus, it's more important than ever to question the prices being paid for beans and to understand how much of the money being paid actually makes it back to the grower.

Thomas Forbes
@Thomas Forbes
05/03/12 14:34:59
102 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

I also just read through the articles. Very interesting and well done.

Brad Churchill
@Brad Churchill
05/02/12 22:57:37
527 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

Scott;

After reading your post I went online and found DallasFood's 10 part article on Noka. It was great, and epitomizes what I've been talking about here in Calgary for a few years. It's much better written than anything I could come up with, and I'm personally glad that Noka's out of business.

Cheers and thanks for the update.

Brad

Scott
@Scott
05/02/12 15:31:26
44 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

Brad,

Noka Chocolate is no longer in business. Their brand management has become a textbook example of what not to do. (See Chapter 7 of Dr. Eric Anderson's Social Media Marketing: Game Theory and the Emergence of Collaboration.)


Jeff
@Jeff
05/02/12 12:37:38
94 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

People listen, pay attention, and measure others' performance by what they say.

If my work is being judged or assessed by others because of the spin some hipsters with deep pockets in Brooklyn say, as opposed to the actual quality of the product, then this industry is doomed.

Brad Churchill
@Brad Churchill
05/02/12 10:49:54
527 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

Clay;

To some degree you're right. I get a tremendous amount of press as well, have been on the front page of every local newspaper,front and center on regional television as well, and have had some of my recipes published - in all over 40 different media appearances/publications.

When you talk to people who areIN the chocolate industry, many people have heard of me. Chances are they haveread something I've written, or some review about me somewhere online. However outside of the chocolate industry it's a different story and there's a good reason: Almost nobody pays attention to traditional media these days. The proof is in the pudding so-to-speak.In the past 31/2 years, in spite of garnering 10's of thousands of dollars worth of free press in a community of a million people, less than 5% of our gross saleshas some from it - 5 % of over 52,000 transactions! What's even more interesting, is that in the weekly events I host in my shop, while everyone claims to love chocolate only 25% of the attendees have ever heard of Choklat. After 3 1/2 years of publiclykicking sand in the faces of every local chocolatier, only 25% of the population has heard of me!

Having said all of that, when you look at the size of New York, or even the US in general (10X the population of Canada), I think you'll find that very few people will have heard of Mast Brothers in spite of all the press they get, UNLESS of course, that person is IN the chocolate industry - and most people aren't in the industry.

I think their words will have more effect on those in the craft chocolateindustry, but based on the market research that I continue to do, their words will have a negligible effect on the general public - largely because they didn't hear what Mast Bros said in the first place, and secondly because a large portion of the general public simply doesn't care.

Now, having said all of that, I'm in no way diminishing what you offer here to the chocolate community. It's been a valuable resource for me, which is one of the reasons I keep contributing. However I think if you poll your thousands of members, I think you'll find that almost all of them work with chocolate in some capacity - they aren't just end consumers.

Again, I think it's great that we police each other in this industry, and this popular forum is a great way of spreading the word. However on the grand scheme of things, what we say here will have almost no effect on the general public - kind of like screaming in a vacuum.

I'm completely fine with agreeing to disagree on some levels, but would like to say that I vehemently agree with your stance on deliberate misrepresentation. I'm just trying to be pragmatic in my assessment of the level and scope of potential misrepresentation. Forexample: You have 5,000 members (I'm guessing). I'm also guessing (optimistically) that another 5,000 people lurk this forum. That's 10,000 people out of the 350 million people in North America alone - or about one person per city. How many of those people do you think will care enough about what Mast Bros (or any other chocolatier for that matter)say to be the town cryer and convince others to change their buying habits? Like I said.... Hardly a ripple to the general public - which is probably a good thing, as maybe what he said was a slip of the tongue, or he was a bit "enthusiastic" about his product. In the end is that one sentence any better or worse than the majority of chocolate shop employees who claim their owner makes chocolate in the back? What's worse?

Noka Chocolate is the poster child for this example. How many people in the chocolate industry would actually "Pay" for one of their outrageously priced and pretentious confections? Certainly not I or you! Yet they still do great business in spite of the negative comments available on the 'net. Most people don't know, and many don't care.

...just my thoughts.

Brad.

Clay Gordon
@Clay Gordon
05/02/12 10:00:16
1,690 posts

Examining a Mast Brothers Assertion


Posted in: Opinion

Brad -

Here on TheChocolateLife we discuss many things that are not necessarily interesting to members of the general public.

You are right when you say that claims like the Mast Brothers will have little to no affect on the chocolate industry as a whole, but it has, and will continue to have, a huge effect on the craft chocolate community here in the US, as well as on foreign companies who do business here in the US. Any deliberate misrepresentation is an issue.

Using Fairtrade and organic as greenwashing techniques is insidious, and ultimately, misunderstanding about the value that fair trade and sustainable initiative actually deliver affect people's lives in more direct and harmful ways.

I have brought (and will continue to bring) to the community's attention issues that I think are relevant to the community because I believe - just by the act of becoming a member - people have signaled an interest in these larger issues.

I have to disagree that what a micro-chocolatier says or does hardly creates a ripple. Take a look at the press the Mast Brothers gets. Pay attention to the channels they are in. People listen, pay attention, and measure others' performance by what they say. While the effects may not be seen in the supermarket or on Nestle's or Mars' bottom line - it does affect other craft chocolate makers and the people who really do care about the evolution and growth of the market.

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