Forum Activity for @ChocolatsNobles

Also, I would like clarification on this statement, please:

"[...] the temperatures involved in the distillation process, coupled with the alcohol of the finished product, are likely to kill any bacterial pathogens that might be present on the shell."

Does this still hold true now that I've clarified that the product would be a rum infused with cacao and not a spirit distilled from cacao? 

Also, does this also hold true for the brewing of beer? Figured it's worth asking since the alcohol content is significantly lower.

Thanks again!

Clay:

Thanks for the response! The information regarding bacteria and heavy metal analysis were very helpful. Most of your response was based on a couple misunderstandings, though, which I'll clarify just so others don't take the conversation on a deeper tangent.

First, I made a mistake by omitting an important clause. My statement should have read, "[...] used raw, whole bean cacao [...] to make a whiskey infused/flavored with cacao." The whiskey this NY company made was a traditional whiskey flavored and/or aged with raw cacao, and that is what these rum distillers wanted to do with their rum (distilled from molasses). Sorry for the confusion there.

Second, I am not personally making any alcohol products; I've merely been approached as a chocolate maker and chocolatier to provide materials or products and to collaborate on the creation of rum and beer flavored with cacao by two separate, fully licensed companies. 

Finally, I would never partner with the Brothers for any reason; the current rum distiller is a former employee of the whiskey distillery that partnered with the Masts on the cacao infused/aged whiskey.

So, I have no need to discuss those three items further, but I'd love to hear more from anyone about the concerns with heavy metals, inorganic compounds, and/or mycotoxins.

Thanks! 

Chris:

First off, if you make a distillate from cocoa beans it cannot legally be called either rum or whiskey. There are very strict rules laid down by the TTB (The Alcohol and Tobacco Trade and Tax Bureau) with respect to recipes and labeling. For example, to be a rum, the product must be made from sugar or a sugar by-product (e.g., molasses).

I know this because of a) the work I did to help Cacao Prieto (now Widow Jane) gets its federal and NY State permits; and b) the work I did with New World Spirits to get a new TTB classification (the first in about 150 years) for Solbeso, which is distilled from the juice of fresh cacao pulp.

Whatever you make from distilling cocoa you cannot call it - or label it or hint at in advertising or marketing - either rum or whiskey because it does not meet the definition of those sprits  (.PDF) . There is an "other" category called DSS (Distilled Spirits Specialty) and this is where a product made from cocoa beans (whole or nib, roasted or unroasted) would fit. From experience, if you don't have A LOT of money (hundreds of thousands per market )  and time, it's really hard to launch a new spirit that does not fit into a mainstream category.

If you plan to get involved in this project (or any distilling project) I suggest that you do your homework and learn about distilling processes and the licensing process with the TTB. The first place I would start is the TTB web site because there are a lot of great resources there.

From my personal, first-hand, experience, the temperatures involved in the distillation process, coupled with the alcohol of the finished product, are likely to kill any bacterial pathogens that might be present on the shell. And, I don't think it is going to be too difficult to overwhelm whatever viable yeasts remain on the shell, even if you do end up using whole beans. There's more I could say about process and recipes, but I have an NDA with the producers of Solbeso.

My primary concern with using whole beans - as you rightfully point out - would be with heavy metal and inorganic chemicals that might be present in the shell - as these might make it through to end of the distillation process. Testing must be done to ensure that they are not present, and you would be advised to do this both before and after distillation, starting with test batches well before you start even thinking about the process with the TTB as you are going to have to provide certificates of analysis in order to get permits to sell.

Starting from nib obviates many potential difficulties, but does not obviate the need for proper (and ongoing) testing. There are simple batch sterilization methods that can be applied to nib that don't involve heat/steam if that's a concern.

As for the Mast Bros. From a strict marketing perspective it makes sense to try to associate with their famous brand. However, from what I have heard of their history of partnering there is a risk that they may try to take credit for the idea, should it benefit their brand. I would be very careful when approaching them and make sure you have a very good IP lawyer. From a raw materials perspective there is nothing special about the cocoa they can provide. There are any number of alternative suppliers who can provide the raw inputs you are looking for (and I would actively argue against whole beans) on a large scale, at much more attractive prices.

There are other products that can be made from alcohol and cocoa, with different starting points. There may be areas I can help with that would not violate my confidentiality agreements with NWS/Solbeso - and I am happy to help (consult) where I can.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I'd like to introduce the tangent of alcoholic brewing and distillation, as I've recently had two interactions wherein a craftsman has suggested we use raw cacao to create a beverage.

First, a rum distiller had previously, when working with a whiskey distillery in NY, used raw, whole bean cacao from (brace yourself, Clay) the Brothers of Mast to make a whiskey. They were interested in doing the same now with their rum, and based on what I'd read on this thread and elsewhere, told them it wasn't a good idea to use raw cacao or shell material - and also to forget the name of those other chocolate fakers forever.

Then, a local brewer asked me, "SO, when are we gonna do a wild cacao (meaning, raw) fermentation?" Now, this is why I'm even bothering to ask for your opinion specifically, Sebastian - back in Seattle, he claims to have done such a fermentation not on a whim, but in conjunction with what I'll call "a very large, industrial, yet socially- and environmentally-responsible chocolate manufacturer that conducts and sponsors a lot of scientific research" - as I have no reason to give them a bad name, if this story does that. The conversation was cut short, so I didn't get too much info on the process, as he was kind of recalling multiple instances and methods of brewing experimentation and the laboratory of this chocolate factory (e.g., centrifugally separated cacao juice? really?). However, the main idea he was discussing was to throw the beans in whole and raw, asserting that, "... it's all yeast, right?" To which I shuddered and told him I'd look into it. Anyway, I'd like to know exactly what's what, lest his superior knowledge of brewing negates my sophomoric understanding of the risks.

Now, I'm assuming that alcohol, being a mycotoxin itself, would only amplify the possibilities of toxicity (in a bad way, not a "cool, drunker" way - LOL), no? Or would the mycotoxin battles each other for survival, yielding a comparable intoxication to alcohol alone? I would also assume the possibility of heavy metal contamination would be raised, no? Then there's the miscellaneous junk on the shell - dusts, dirt, etc - though perhaps that could be washed off to some degree (at least to the same degree as hops and malts?) without eliminating the natural yeasts? 

Anyway, the big question here: is there any part of the distilling or the brewing process that might negate, if not control, the critical points previously discussed? Again, since I'd like to work with this guy in the future (preferably with roasted nibs or chocolate, though), I don't want to make assumptions or miss something crucial so as to negate the argument against shell/raw cacao use as a whole. 

Thanks!

SpiceValley  recently introduced CinnaPepper – a combination of White pepper seed with a process of maceration with Cinnamon. Spice Valley is looking for chocolate makers to create some recipes. Allready have collaboraton with 5star Chefs , Do not hesitate to contact them. 

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Hi, what was the price for the savage side by side melters?

jeremy@decorchocolates.com

thanks

Lot of good questions in there that can't be answered briefly.  Short version is you need to be most concerned with achieving an effective 4-5log kill on Salmonella - the danger lies in ingesting viable organisms that can then multiply inside you.  All treatments you mention (steam, nib, bean roasting) can be validated to safely achieve the necessary level of kill, although they all work slightly different from one another, and the settings you use to get a 5log kill on one method will likely require you to modify them for another.  Post roast-contamination should always be part of your flow design - you don't want to effectively roast the beans only to re-contaminate them when you remove them from the roaster (it happens).  Steam is a MUCH more effective way of killing micro-organisms than straight dry heat, as the energy associated with heating water is greater than the energy associated with heating air to the exact same temperature.  It is that energy, then, that results in the death of your micro-organisms.

Thanks you, Peter3 and Sebastian! You both have a good points. It is always a good idear to do addional lab tests. I'll devinitely look in to that. 

Sebastian, am I right in thinking that the roasting proces will kill coli and salmonella, but seen as they are both have endotoxins, a death large enough colony is still a hazard? With this in mind, is bean roasting not more hygienic than nib roasting, so live bacteria can migrate from shell to nib? (Can nibs be contaminated when the shell of the bean is intact?) What is the addion of steam sterilization? Is steam sterilization only necessary when the bean-breaking step is done with unroasted beans? 

I'd strongly disagree with that.  TPC, yeast, and mold are more indicators of storage/transport conditions (ie did the materials get wet at some point) and general quality, but have very little to do with organisms of public health concern.  Coliforms and salmonella sp. are *the* reasons for kill steps in chocolate making processes, and as such are the organisms of concern to be targeted for enumeration.  It is those that one needs to concern themselves with.

Steam sterilization of nibs in commercial roasting operations is not an uncommon thing to do.

Use nibs from your current process to make cocoa mass.

Find a local micro lab (there are plenty of them) and get the cocoa mass tested for total plate count, yeasts and moulds.

While you are waiting for results find out what is your local micro standard for total plate counts in chocolate products.

Get the results from the lab, compare to standard and you will know if you need to change anything.

If in doubt come back here with results.

Whole thing will cost you less than 100 Euro.

Most probably you will find that you don't need to do anything.

I am interested.  Please send pricing details.

Hi - how much are you asking for these machines?

Thanks, Jim Greenberg

Union Confectionery Machinery

For Sale is a Perfect Equipments Inc. Wheel Tempering Unit.

The Unit is in good Condition.

See Pictures 

No enrobing Conveyor with Unit.

8000 CAD

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Hey Guys,

i have a  Savage Bros. Side by Side Melting and Tempering System for Sale.

One Tank is new and never used and the other one is like new. 

Size: 450 lbs Melting and 450 lbs Tempering Tank

Voltage is 230V, 3Ph, 60Hz  18Amp

Melting Tank Model#: 0971-40 S/N: 266 

Tempering Tank Model#: 0970-60 S/N: 265

Date of Manufacture: September 2004

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Hello everyone, 

A question concerning hygiene here for a small bean-to-bar chocolate production in Europe.

To maintain a good flavor I  roast whole cocoa beans. I roast in an oven. Ofcourse after the bean roasting comes the breaking and winnowing. I wonder if its good the sterilise the nibs (with steam) after winnowing en before grinding them. The most hygienic way would be break-winnowing-steam-roast. I have tried to oven roast nibs but it is difficult not to burn the nibs.  

Does anyone have any suggestions? 

a colleague of mine uses such software. I asked him for some info - it is called EasyERP and it is a suite of applications including inventory management system, order processing, client database, accounting.

Complete waste of money.

Why?

Because as small business owners we ALL have oodles and oodles of spare time to stand around and feed tiny amounts of nibs into a machine three times, to grind it into a gritty paste that can't be used for anything other than making micro batch chocolate, which of course is what the micro batch refiners are designed to do - GRIND nibs into chocolate!

There are other more useful things to spend $7500 on.

Brad.

Hi Matt,

Brunei sounds like an interesting place to make chocolate as I believe the consumption will rise in this country, similar to the Arabic countries.

To come back to your question: I work currently in Indonesia with a chocolate team and I can see that controlled air temperature and humidity are quite important to get stable recurring results. It's of course not the only source for failure, but one possible.
So it might not solve your problem but for sure make it a more stable process.

To harden out the chocolate after molding sure us the fridge, to cool down before final heating up to 32 degrees for tempering, you can use the fridge as well but be careful, can go very fast and the mass is to low in temperature and you will  have to start all over again.

Hope that helps (if I did understand your question correct).

Best, Andy

I would as well be interested in experiences with the rottar grinder as I have no voices heard of this one so far.

Thanks for any inputs.

Best, Andy

I have been looking for some soccer ball printed foils to wrap chocolate balls in any one know where to find these. I have exhausted my searches online. I know I've seen them but cannot find them any where. I need some no bigger than 4 x 4 can go as small as 3 x 3. Would be great if they were black with silver backing.

Please take a look at these photos and let me know what we did wrong.

Also when this happens any recommendations on how to clean out the molds efficiently.

Thank you,

Rich

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The further I delve in the more I am discovering some options that I was not aware of in the small to medium batch size.  I would like to start this thread with some companies that are producing these machines, and would love any feedback from anyone with first hand experience.  From the quality and use of the machine as well as assistance in all aspects from the factory or distributor.  If needed for some of the less known brands, we can start separate threads.

Obviously many have spoken and had experience with Santha and Cocoa Town, and more information is always welcome.  But some of the other machines I would like to know more about are:

Rottar

Kadzama

Kudvic

Packint

FBM

Look forward to learning about others experiences with these and any other we may not have listed

Absolutely EVERYTHING that you need to get into the gourmet chocolate business! All was purchased new in 2013-2014. In excellent condition. Would prefer pick up and to sell all items together. Includes:

Chocovision Revolation 3210x – Fully automatic chocolate tempering. Has stainless steel construction and state-of-the-art design and technology is the perfect solution for chocolate production facilities. ChocoVision's acclaimed microprocessor control card ensures tempering and maintaining chocolate within 2/10th of a degree Fahrenheit. This space-efficient machine can melt a minimum of three to a maximum of seventeen pounds of chocolate in about an hour. Sells new from $2,500. Features include:

• Large capacity - automatically tempers up to 10 lbs of chocolate in under one hour. includes brand new Holey Baffle ($199.00 value) to increase the capacity to 17 lbs
• Fully controllable digital control panel
• Fully automatic micro-processor using forced hot air
• Bowl pause
• Manual temperature adjustment (up to 130 degrees during the Melt Cycle, 95 degrees in Temper Mode)
• Overnight (Standby) Mode
• Set and hold temper point to 2/10ths of a degree Fahrenheit
• Customized heat control
• Designed to operate efficiently under the most demanding of circumstances
• Customized Heat Control to better control the chocolate's viscosity
• Includes cover/lid

Please click here to download the Rev X3210 Instruction Manual

3.5 shelf Frigidaire refrigerator, accommodates half sheet pans, retails for $499

Danby window air conditioner

Panasonic microwave

Waring electric burner

Hundreds of molds for ALL occasions

Shelving, storage rack and containers

20 half sheet pans

Assorted other pots and other kitchen items (candy thermometer, measuring cups, scale, etc.)

Ribbons, flowers, etc.

Packaging materials, including pour and pack packaging for >100 bars

Colored foils in various sizes, & bags – more than can count!

ALSO AVAILABLE:

L&J Restaurant Manufacturing 23” Stainless steel sink – retail >$250, plus faucet – available at additional $175

ADVANCE TABCO Enclosed Base Table available at additional cost.  List price $3,405. In like new condition offered at $2,600.

Table Model: N
Table Size: 24" x 36"
Style: Hinged Doors
Table Top: Enclosed Base
Table Edge: Bull Nose Edge
Midshelf? No
Material: 1.5" Splash
Steel Grade: 304
Gauge: 14

Please email your name and phone number and we will get back to you. Pictures sent upon request.

Hi! Please contact me at fnk2103@gmail.com. Thanks!

We are interested in these as well.  Please provide contact info.

Hi! I would like to get sample. Please contact me battviacheslav@gmail.com

Hi Kerry

Thanks very much for your input. I did not realise that the heat of crystallisation would be enough to do that, i have been measuring surface temps of the setting chocolate and have witnessed the plateau at 27.5 Deg C but did not think that would be allowing for alternative crystal formation. I will try the fridge!

Many thanks

Matt

Hi there folks,

 At this point the above equipment is still available for sale. 

Does anyone know what would cause these oily spots and sheen? I’m getting it too.  The sheen shows up when the liquid chocolate is in the melanger.  I only clean the melanger with hot water, but I do melt the cocoa butter in a bowl that has gone through the dishwasher.   Could the oily spots be coming from residue soap that the cocoa butter picked up from the bowl?

I’m really new to chocolate making so any advice would be appreciated.

ALLUVIA Plantation is a family Bean to bar Company  based in The Mekong Delta Vietnam ! 

We are now ready to expand and looking for our distributors worldwide .

Contact : info@spicevalley-distribution.com

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do you have  still machine for sale

thank you email me at

cedric@barberetlancaster.com

I read it both on here and CA from a few posters. Unsurprisingly there is very little info outside these sites about it, though most youtube videos do show machines having nibs followed by sugar added (presumably they were not making a 90% chocolate)

However, since I always refuse to take other peoples words for it, I'm going to build a small prototype anyway to handle 1-2kg or so of chocolate, since I want to see how it would handle rolled oats

I know of a few makers using a ball mill to to make 2-ingredient 70% bars, which almost certainly don't have that high a fat content. Where'd you read that?

Having now spent a bit of time looking at the concept, it seems that you need to be working with a fat content of 40-50% with a ball mill. Not very useful for creating most chocolate if this is the case.

Brian, I sold the 60 lb scale yesterday, but I still have a shipping scale if you're interested. It comes with a Zebra label printer if you need one. I'm asking $30 + shipping for the scale.

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I'm in San Antonio if you still have them. 

Brian

I'd take 10-15. Let me know how to reach you directly. 

Brian

Matt, 

I would suggest a bit of time in the fridge when the chocolate is beginning to show signs of crystallizing around the edges - when it starts to crystallize rapidly it gives off the latent heat of crystallization and can get warm enough to throw itself out of temper in spots. Depending on the size and thickness of the bar you are making - this can be 10 to 30 minutes. You don't want to leave the chocolate in the fridge until it cools completely or water will condense on the surface and cause sugar bloom when it evaporates.

I have 98 high quality polycarbonate molds for sale from Hans Brunner, Germany. These molds had been is use for about 2 years before we switched to a different size. Originally cost $25 each, selling them for $9 ($880 total). 

Happy to ship them to your location as well if you pay for shipping. Otherwise local pickup. 3 cavities per mold, each cavity is 3.5oz. 

Lmk if you have any other questions.

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I was more interested maybe some one have the truffle machine.

Thanks for the link. This appears to be a two-part machine consisting of an enrober belt and what is sometimes called a "truffle tray." To use, it also requires a Selmi tempering machine ... I believe a machine with a minimum of a 25kg working bowl is required.

http://www.selmi-chocolate.it/prodotti/accessori-applicabili-alle-temperatrici/automatic-truffle/