Forum Activity for @Clay

Don -

This belongs in the Classifieds section. Please repost.

:: Clay

Courtney -

Discussions like this really belong in the Classifieds section and it's ALWAYS a good idea to let people know where you are located in a post like this. If you're outside the US (you're not, you're in Maryland) then the recommendations would not be useful to you.

You can get chocolate dipping sets online through Chocovision . They're not terribly expensive but if you contact Chocovision and speak to Ian and let him know the charitable nature of the work you're doing (and that you are a ChocolateLife member), he may be able to help you on the price.

How much cocoa butter do you need? In NYC David Rosen Bakery Supply sells Blommer undeodorized butter in 35lb tubs at a good price. I've bought over a ton of this over the years so I must think it's pretty good (it is). Call Blommer at (215) 679-4472 and ask if there's someone closer to you that sells it.

:: Clay

Mariano:

I would not buy directly from China unless you are prepared, immediately upon arrival, to examine all of the electrics and electronics and completely re-wire the machine. I would also make sure to ask what material the blades and the inner surfaces of the machine are made of. They have to be made from extremely hard (expensive) steel. Otherwise they will wear down quickly and you will get a lot of metal in the chocolate. Ask what kind of steel and then let me know, I can tell you if it's the right kind.

These are the sorts of details that the Peruvian company I work with takes care of for you. We also work hard to ensure the quality and finish of the welding is good. They are little things - but unless you are prepared to do the work yourself, it makes sense to spend the extra money and have them done for you.

Mariano:

This type machine is called a Universal and it can be used to grind, refine, and conche chocolate.

If you are interested in a machine of this type I work with a supplier down in Peru who can provide them in either 40L or 100L capacities and ship directly to you in Honduras. I have worked with the supplier to make minor modifications on the smaller machine to improve air flow (and therefore conching ability).

:: Clay

Cacao from Turkey?

Origins?

The Black Inca beer is from Australia and you can contact ChocolateLife member Igor van Gerwen about getting some. We're registered for sale in California, so I need to connect to figure out how you can order. I will get back to you.

Ash -

One of the projects I am working on is Solbeso - the world's first distilled beverage made from 100% fresh cacao fruit juice. We're registered for sale in NY, FL, and CA and ship to most states. It's 40% ABV, not 5-12% which is what a wine or beer would be, but it is very tasty. Let me know if you are interested and I can give you contact info for how to purchase.

:: Clay

This is the second in a regular series (ultimately at least quarterly) of Group Reviews , a new feature for 2014 here on TheChocolateLife.

The idea behind the reviews is to get members to contribute their opinions about chocolates that are either very popular, have been heavily hyped, and/or that have received strong positive reviews from rating and reviewing web sites and/or awards programs.

The inspiration for the feature comes from Jos Ortega y Gassets 1929 book, The Revolt of the Masses [ Amazon affiliate link ]. In this book, Gasset predicts that future generations will come to rely more heavily on the recommendations of friends, colleagues, and even strangers over those of experts. If asked to choose between the advice of "experts" and the impressions of "regular" people, the majority will turn to the latter. This helps explain why many people tend to trust crowd-sourced aggregate reviews over those from reviewers in established media outlets.

For this Group Review - Anything made by the Mast Bros

Think about your response in three parts.

Part 1 :: Present your sensory impressions - Aroma, Taste, and Texture -of one or more of the chocolates.

Part 2 :: Give a rating of the chocolate on whatever scale you want (or that you use for your own purposes) - 1 (low) through 10 (high), 1 through 100, or an impressionistic scale from low (This chocolate is so bad that if I were gifted it I would not even regift it to someone I did not care about); to high (This chocolate is so good that I would have to think three times before sharing any, or This is a desert island chocolate).

Part 3 :: This part is optional but is very important for this review and can include a discussion about other aspects of the chocolate - including your thoughts on packaging, marketing -- topics that are not central to the chocolate itself.

Maroun:

I have to counsel you again here on the way you represent your machines and business. You have a particular type of batch tempering machine - one with a wheel. You do not have the best machine for all startup businesses.

:: Clay

Maroun:

Your English here is not correct. Your recommendation to Sabrina is just that, a recommendation - it is not that she "must" buy from you the machine you advise her on. Also, other people in the future may be interested in what you recommend to Sabrina, so I would appreciate your keeping the answers public - and not asking members to email you privately.

:: Clay

Both are very simple machines when you get right down to it. The major difference in price is that the outer shell of the Mol d'Arts are made from plastic and the Bakons are all stainless steel. There have been some reports that the thermostats of the Mol d'Arts are not as robust (or accurate) as they could be.

So, you are getting when you pay for when you get a Bakon. Another source for similar machines that could be slightly cheaper is Desin et Realization (DR.ca).

I know people who use standard buffet warmers and regular hotel pans (make sure to get one that does not require water). These have the advantage of being very cheap but the temperature controls are not all that precise. If you can get a two-input PID controller you can put one probe on the heating element to keep it from getting too hot and the other in the chocolate to control the temperature.

Sebastian:

Thanks! If/when it gets to that stage I will reach out for some connections and introductions.

To all ChocolateLife members:

I have made a connection with travel company that specializes in affinity group, philanthropic, and donor travel programs. They have a strong business working with company and organizations interested in providing their members one-of-a-kind travel programs with some sort of sustainability and/or corporate social responsibility component.

They are asking me to be a subject matter expert when it comes to offering programs around cacao and chocolate and sustainable production.

It occurs to me that these are travel opportunities that ChocolateLife members might like, and that we could be an affinity group and organize our own travel programs.

The question is, "Where would you like to go?"

The company works all over the world except in developed countries. So, no destinations in the US or Europe and some countries in SE Asia. But that leaves all of Central and South America, the Caribbean, East and West Africa, Indonesia (Bali!), and more.

So I'd like to hear from members where they would most like to go. Based on your input I will work with the company to select some destinations and work up a rough list of the experiences we could have while we're there.

And then I will invite ChocolateLife members to join me on fabulous journeys to learn about cacao and chocolate all over the world.

Here's to travel and adventure,
:: Clay

Brad -

We are talking something different here I think.

Here at Choklat we don't age it at all, and it's just as good day one out of the refiner as it is having sat on a shelf in a 50lb block for 2 months.

The question at hand is, in part, "Does aging affect chocolate and if so, in what way(s)?"

Are there any discernible changes that take place in your chocolate over the two months? I agree that those changes might be smaller in a large block of 25kg than they would be in a bar of 50 grams, but I have a lot of trouble believing that the two chocolates taste identical.

I have personally tasted bars from Friis Holm (made by Bonnat) and bars from Marco Colzani (C|Amaro outside of Milan in Cassago Brianza) where there were profound differences in the chocolates that could be attributed to aging. I tasted a new bar from Bryan Graham at Fruition a couple of weeks ago that was four days out of the conche. It was wildly interesting (the best thing I've tasted from the Maraon beans) but it had a distinct tannic structure and a "green" taste. Bryan gave me two bars and I am looking forward to tasting it anew, in about 2-3 weeks because I know it will be different.

But I do think it may have to do with style. Many chocolate makers like to make chocolates that don't have all the edges rounded off. They leave in acids and tannins because they think the resulting chocolates are more interesting. You don't I can make a pretty good case that your chocolate may change less via aging because of the way you roast and conche.

It is possible to over-age chocolate and in my experience, delicate top notes are the first to go.

They are all different chocolates, one is not necessarily better than another - they appeal to different consumers.

So no, I don't think aging is a gimmick. Letting it "rest" in the conche for 24 hours and attributing some magic benefits to that rest, is.

Junior:

This appears to me to be a solicitation to sell equipment hidden in a post with some history - or are the conches you are liquidating for sale?

Do you have a source? Or did you author this yourself?

Technically, this is a blog post, so not a forum discussion, so it does not belong here. If you want to sell you conches (and anything else) to members, you have to do it in the classifieds section. If this is your business, then you cannot post classifieds at no charge.

So - is it in poor taste? Maybe. Contact me.

Junior:

If you are selling the equipment you cannot do so without contacting me first. I see you've posted two other discussions on this.

It's NOT cool.

:: Clay

Ernesto:

Do you already own the machine or are thinking of buying one?

I have been working with FBM on making sure that their machines are suitable for working with craft chocolate, which has a tendency to have a higher viscosity (is much thicker) than commercial couverture chocolates.Among other things, the geometry of the tempering auger in the FBM machines makes them well-suited to working with craft chocolates.

There is now a Craft Chocolate Upgrade for two of FBM's machines (the new ProXima and Unica, both with 25kg working bowls) for volume production. This upgrade was created in direct response to the experiences of one particular customer who pushed us and pushed us to solve his problems. He does not add any cocoa butter to his recipes -- something FBM had never run across before. The upgrade consists of a more powerful motor that delivers extra lower-RPM torque, a gearbox with a different ratio, and heavy-duty bearing seals for the auger.

Even the smaller FBM machines -- 4kg, 7kg, and 12kg working bowls have features that make them suitable for working with thicker chocolates. Yes, there have been some issues with some users who've been having troubles finding the proper tempering points, but I've been working with FBM over the past six months to find a solution and we've found the answers.

Right now some of the US's most demanding craft chocolate makers are buying - and switching to - FBM for this reason. As near as I know (and I follow this topic closely), FBM is the only company that's listening closely to the needs of craft chocolate makers.

Also -- ChocolateLife members get a 10% discount of list prices.

Dorothy -

I think the summary of options is a great idea! I am looking forward to hearing about them.

Dorothy:

Jean-Marie Auboine runs a school in Las Vegas, NV. I am not sure if he offers anything at this level, but I would check to see.

Juliana:

Thanks for the kind words about the community and the book. I am privileged to be able to work with so many people around the world who share a passion for chocolate.

I think your best bet is going to start working with an online store/distributor like ChocoSphere.com. They carry many brands and many different varieties from those brands. You can purchase in small quantities to start with, and larger quantities if you need to. I don't think that sourcing direct from the manufacturers makes much sense at this level.

Juliana:

Two questions before we can answer this question for you:

1) How much chocolate do you want to buy? 10 pounds? 100 pounds? More?

2) What's your price range? $4-5/pound? $5-9/lb? $10 or more/pound?

Ash -

I contacted Roastech and the prices of the ovens are very good. However, they really are continuous ovens and they want to be run all day long (24/7 would be better). The smallest one does up to 50kg per hour, and based on what I heard I would not try to run it for less than 6 hours at a stretch and 8-12 would probably be better for consistency ... as the roast is not entirely even with the drum has different amounts of product in it.

The temperature range is quite large and there is a VFD on the drum so you can select how long the product is in the roaster. This gives you some fine control over the roast. They also claim (but I have no way to verify), that the moisture coming out of the product is turned into steam and so does perform a sanitary kill step.

There's no one using one of them for cocoa in the US.

For small batch production I don't know that one of these makes sense. But I could easily see production situations where a 50kg machine (about US$6500) could be very useful.

That said, fine-tuning variables to get the roast you want might involve a lot of time and beans and there is no way to inspect the beans mid-roast that I know of.

:: Clay

Ash -

I imagine that the flavanols would fall into the category of bitter flavors.

This is a very small (consumer) version of what is often referred to as a "combi" oven and that is often found in commercial kitchens. What makes the Sharp a little different from most combis is that it also includes a microwave cooking option, something that is not found in most commercial combis.

You can achieve an improved level of microbial kill by using a combi oven with steam for a portion of the roasting cycle. You can get the oven quite hot, add the beans on trays, start the steam, and roast for a relatively short time. At which point you can remove the beans to let them cool and turn the oven down to a much lower temperature for the remainder of the roasting cycle. This way you can effectively achieve a lower roast profile while getting the benefit of the microbial kill step.

One thing to consider is that once the beans are cooled you could crack and winnow them before putting the nib back in the roaster. This could mean much shorter roast times as well as more even roasts.

If you want a larger oven, something like a Moffatt E32D5 will give you the steam option with a five full-size sheet pan capacity.

Sebastian:

I will check into the pH levels with our master distiller when I am in Peru in July and get back to you.

Solbeso is now available in the US. We're registered for sale in New York and Florida and I think we can ship to 48 of the 50 states if you're not in NY or FL. LMK and I can send you the names of our retail partners who ship.

It's an interesting liquid. It has no taste of cacao/chocolate, but is reminiscent of pulp. 40% ABV, so it's formulated for use in cocktails but can be drunk neat or over ice (it behaves a lot like a brown spirit - water softens it and opens it up). Good cocktails are in the sours and international sours families. One of our signature cocktails is called a Beso Picante - hot kiss. Solbeso, lemon juice, orange liqueur, and heat -- cayenne pepper, habaero bitters, muddled jalapeo/cucumber ...

Solbeso also makes a great Michelada. We did one at Taproom 307 here in NYC during Beer Week -- the Midnight Sun Michelada -- that was lime juice, Solbeso, spicy tomato water (from pico de gallo), and a splash of Worcestershire. Shake, pour into a pint glass (salt-rimmed if desired), fill with a black IPA, and garnish with a pickled jalapeo slice and a lime wedge.

It also goes great as a beer shot/boilermaker with Cusquea lager.

:: Clay

Sebastian:

T0 is when the pod is opened?

In our experience in fermenting juice for Solbeso, by the time it arrives at the collection center between 4 and 8 hours later, pH of the juice has dropped considerably into the range I mentioned.

Tibor -

Vicente Norero in Ecuador -- Camino Verde -- is offering several different fermentations from the same beans so I know that there is someone doing this on production scale and you can buy the beans and taste the differences.

Also, I have heard that the Rizeks in the Dominican Republic have been doing the same for some of their clients. I have not visited either facility so I don't know any of the specifics.

There are commercial sources for yeasts for the various alcohol industries - beer, wine, and spirits. Wyeast Labs is one source I know that several of my beer, wine, and mead friends use. If you wanna go all serious and stuff on this project, Lallemand may be a place to try.

One thing to consider when sourcing yeast for fermenting cacao pulp is that the pulp has a pH in the 3.5 range so you're going to want a yeast that is comfortable working at this level of acidity -- not all yeasts are.

Jennifer -

If Sebastian is right, then one step would be to install a dehumidifier in the room and also to install some sort of humidity sensor so you can discover the environmental conditions that lead up to this. This will help you understand the sugar bloom issues. (I often notice a textural change in chocolate that has sugar bloomed - it can taste sandy and granular.)

As for the swirls appearing in the chocolate. Get a good fast-reading digital probe thermometer and check to make sure that the thermocouple in the Rev is actually reading properly. Replacing the probe (by replacing the baffle) could help solve that problem.

May 15th, 2014 is National Chocolate Chip Cookie Day here in the US.

What are your favorite chocolate chip cookie recipes, pairings, and or experiences? Most unusual chocolate chip cookie or the most unusual place you've eaten a chocolate chip cookie?

On a related note, June 6th is National Donut Day. What's your favorite donut/chocolate pairing? Who makes the best chocolate donuts? What's the must unusual chocolate/donut mashup you've ever had?

Maggie -

We are going to need a little more detail than this to help you out. What kind of chocolate? What temperatures ... also in the room you're working in. How you're cooling, and more.

Have you been in touch with their technical support?

There is already a group called The Science of Chocolate. I think it makes sense if everything get posted there (updates get listed in the Activity list). If you like I can give you some admin rights in the group that you can use to help members more aware of what's going on and we can send general emails to all members about the groups.

One a more prosaic note, if you can help me find a sponsor for the group we can share the revenue.

Rotovaps are certainly one way to do it, and you can often find used ones on eBay for a lot less than the new list price.

Another way is to simply macerate (soak) measured amounts of material in measured amounts of solvents for measured amounts of time (for repeatability) - then filter off the material (e.g., grated endive). As long as the solvents are edible you should not have any issues. You may find that a water extraction is useless, for example, but that alcohol pulls out interesting flavors. You can also play with techniques to prepare the material. You could chop the endive with a knife or shred with a microplane grater.

Have you tried making extracts/tinctures?

I know that some companies are doing three extractions (water, alcohol, and oil) of some flavorings and then combing them. The result is stronger and more complex than when using the food on its own.

To follow on with what Sebastian has said, there is no "one, true" temperature for dark chocolate, one for milk chocolate, and one or white chocolate. Every chocolate will have its own set of working temperatures ... but those may change depending on the ambient temperature and humidity and the method of tempering being used. In large industrial processing situations they can control these variables very closely, but in the average small chocolate kitchen it's a different story.

In my experience, there is no substitute for being able to hand temper and to know what tempered chocolate looks like and how it behaves. You use that experience to help you arrive at the temperatures that work for you.

Without revealing the price of the machines, can you provide links to pages where the equipment that has been quoted to you can be seen for us to evaluate?

Semira -

I have seen quotes of US$500,000 to over US$1,000,000 for complete lines from European manufacturers for production in this daily amount.

On the other hand, I have seen workshops with 500kg/day production where the investment in equipment is under $300,000 - so we're talking a lot more than a couple of thousands of dollars.

JAF Inox is a Brazilian company that was recently purchased by Duyvis-Wiener, as Sebastian pointed out.

One of the things that this has done is to increase the price of the machines significantly, at least outside of Brazil - the other thing it has done is extended the delivery times as well.

There are many ways to produce chocolate in the 300-500kg per day range you mention. There are big differences in price as well as the amount of integration (materials handling) that is and can be done. So, Sebastian is right - we need to know more about what you want to do, the equipment you are looking at, and your budget, to be able to offer more informed opinions.

Ash:

To be able to answer this question it would be helpful to know what kind of work you're producing - and how much.

The Savage is a batch melter/temperer and the most common size is 50 lbs, though the molding workstations are larger. In a batch temperer you temper a batch of chocolate and when you're done you temper another, a process that can easily take 30-90 minutes. Depending on the work you're doing you might do TWO batches of chocolate per day - up to about 550 pounds per day.

The TOP on the other hand is a continuous temperer with a working bowl capacity of 60kg and a nominal sustained throughput of ~180kg (400 pounds) per hour.

On the surface, there is no comparison between the two - they are very different beasts for very different applications.

As a ChocolateLife member I can offer you 10% discounts on FBM continuous tempering machines. The sheet metal is not as pretty as Selmi, but the engineering is superior and they tend to cost less Selmi.

If you can give us an idea of what you're producing and how much you produce (peak and off-peak), we can help you better understand the differences.

There is not nearly enough information here to answer your question.

FIRST: What are the dimensions of each piece? Something that is 25mm x 25mm by 5mm is going to take a different amount of chocolate than ones with different dimensions. Also, there is the viscosity and specific density of the chocolate to consider. All of these variables will have an effect on the amount of chocolate used to enrobe each piece.

Because of this, when I have done these exercises I have always worked backwards.

Start off with a known weight of centers, cover (hand dip, enrobe, what/however) them, and then weigh the finished pieces after they are fully crystallized. You probably want to cover 100 pieces to average out small differences. Weigh the finished pieces. Subtract the starting weight from the finished weight to get the amount of chocolate used and then divide y the number of pieces to get the average weight of chocolate on each piece..

Melters can be used to increase the throughput of most tempering machines, so having a supply of melted chocolate on hand is a good thing, especially if the capacity of the tempering machine is less than the amount of chocolate you are using in a day.

You don't need to spend thousands on a melter. Just yesterday I say a home sous-vide machine that can be used to precisely control a water bath to within .1F. If you put a plexiglass cover over the top of the water bath with holes cut out for the chocolate, you can easily create an inexpensive melter. Temperature control might even be precise enough to melt the chocolate without taking it out of temper.

Maybe.

However, it could be used to temper chocolate using the seed method and replace a Mol d'Art costing $1000 or more.

Links to copies of the presentations can be found here .

Note that the proposed title of the Unilever presentation is Climate Impact and Biodiversity . When you actually load the PDF you can read the infomercial for the Unilever Sustainable Living Plan . They are not synonymous.