Forum Activity for @emily hutel

so i was in a bookstore today reading a very expensive book on chocolate. it said that when adding liquor or butter so a ganache you have to wait until the ganache cools to 94 degrees otherwise the alcohol will evaporate/semi melted butter will wreak havoc with the fat/water levels in theganache. i have always heard never to touch an emulsified ganache until after it sets.... but this is definitely worth a try, it never occured to me that that it would be hot enough to evaporate the alcohol. what do you think?

That is a good question. One chocolatier told me not to agitate the ganache too much and another says to use an immersion blender. That doesn't make sense to me. I do follow all the temperature guidelines--adding the cream to the chocolate at 105 and keeping the temperature between 95 and 105. But I do get some separation and if you don't get the emulsification done properly, the ganache will be grainy. Once it sets, you cannot fix it. I am not sure if the 2 problems--crumbly ganache and difficulty in emulsifying-- are related. It would make sense t hat adding more butter would help, especially if you are replacing some of the cream with liquor--you n eed that extra fat to keep the emulsion. I use the proportions in Wybau's book Fine Chocolates. The fat content of a ganache should be about 38% and 1/3 of that should be from butter (the butter I use is 80% fat). There just seems to be a missing link.

there's so many variables to consider! i did have better success adding some extra cream to the ganache. two of the ganaches were still crumbly, both had liquor and citrus so i'm not sure if either of those is to blame. i'm starting to think that it's because there's not enough fat when i use liquor but that wouldn't make any sense if you have that problem when you use peanut butter. and i can't for the life of me decide about how much agitation. i had to bust out the immersion blender to fix the goat cheese ganache and it turned out great. we need a scientist! i've never had this happen with white chocolate and i've never used milk. does the ganache taste like it's separated?

It would be helpful if one of the chocolate scientists could give some chemistry input here. Some have told me to be sure the cream is not too hot when I melt the chocolate with it, and someone told me not to agitate it too much when emulsifying. Other than that, no one seems to have an answer. There doesn't seem to be a pattern to when it happens, it could be with dark, milk, or white c hocolate ganache, with or without fruit puree. I am looking forward to hearing how your ganache from last night turned out.

hi cassie,

i am having a similar problem with my ganache. i make small batches of different flavors and also handcut them. i've tried both stirring and whisking to solve the problem with no consistent results. i decided that maybe you were right about maybe just not having enough liquid so last night when i was making ganache i tried adding an extra tsp of heavy cream to each batch (i start with 4 oz of dark chocolate) to see if that made a difference. i'll report back after work tonight. i would love to know if you find an answer to this question! thanks!

I make my own recipes for many of my ganaches and I hand cut all of them for now.I have had some issues with some of the ganaches cracking or crumbling as I cut them.

I use a sharp knife that is gently heated (which helps). I bring the cream just to a simmer before pouring over the chocolate and I emuslify thoroughly before slabbing and resting overnight. The flavors that give me the most problem are raspberry (made wiath raspberry puree and some heavy cream, dark chocolate, and butter), hazelnut gananche (made with hazelnut praline pasteand milk and dark chocolate, heavy cream) and a peanut butter ganache (made with peanut butter, heavy cream, and milk chocolate). I use invert sugar or honey in most of my recipes.

I have tinkered with different proportions and various ingredients and cannot figure out what causes this. Is there too much fat? Not enoughliquid?Can anyone help me? I would like to know the chemical explanation as well as the practical one.

Nestor:

I've seen anywhere between 10% and 50%. I created a worksheet and shared it so you can model the cost of selling a chocolate bar from the cost of cocoa beans through ingredients and overhead to distribution costs. If you're not making chocolate from the bean you can download and modify the worksheet to reflect your cost structure.

Thank you Clay, very informative post.

As you mentioned producer needs to add some markup for possible middleman.

What is a (average) usual percentage taken by a middle man?

we make our own couverture bars in our retail store so our profit margin is VERY good... 3.3oz bars sell for $2.95 four for $10. And like Clay said about blending. I have been blending couvertures for over 18 years to get both percentages and flavors which I am looking for. It can be a lot of fun!

Something about keystoning you might want to consider.... There is shipping as well. All retailers will deal with this differently.

wholesale * 2 = retail ...(sometimes the retailer will "eat" the shipping)

(wholesale + shipping) * 2 = retail

(wholesale * 2) + shipping = retail

plug your wholesale number in there and you will find that the retail amount changes quite a bit on a case of bars. Understanding how your customer is going to do their own math may help you close the deal.

Daniel,

I am a bean-to-bar chocolate maker, so pricing structure is be a bit different than couverture. Yet many basic principles remain the same. We both have fixed costs that can not be adjusted. Paying yourself and employees less when starting is one way, researching cheaper packaging is another, sourcing beans directly from farmers instead of middle men cut costs as well. I agree a lot with what Clay and Andy say below about making people realize what they are purchasing. You can buy a few of the best chocolate bars in the world for $20. Not many other quality foods and beverages are like this. It is the difference between getting a $7 bottle of wine vs a $70 bottle and often times it is just explaining the difference to people who don't quite understand what we do with chocolate.

Andy,

As far as what I'm up to, i am closing on a lease Monday to begin setting up a bean-to-bar factory. The company is called Manoa Chocolate Hawaii. It will be a very exciting and busy next few months as we set up shop and find our way into boutiques and supermarkets.Thanks to everyone for their shared experiences on this page.

Agreed, we don't make chocolate we make products from great chocolate and sell american artisanal bars we look for a minimum of 80% markup and often are able to do 100% markup. Because you also have to factor in shipping/freight which drags down revenue.

To those that say you can't sell high end bars I beg to differ, it just takes a conversation. We have bars from 5.50 to 15.00 and I am very often surprised when a high end bar goes after just a discussion about the origin, the creator, the methodology, or maybe just a simple chat on good chocolate. You may not move a lot of them, but I feel it is always good to have a high water line that way when people see the range they gravitate towards the middle and onoccasionwill go for the gold per-say.

Worst case if you don't move the bars, lose a few percent and liquidate them in a fire-sale.

If there is one thing I have learned over the past 4-5 years is never judge a book by its cover and never try and guess consumer mentality on what they are capable of doing. Yes that's a double edged sword too, hehe.

Much luck in your endeavors Dylan, let us know what you're up to.

Daniel -

Yes, the higher the price the smaller the audience. It's worth it - on occasion - to purchase one of the Bonnat Porcelana or vintaged Valrhona bars, and it's also important to remember that even at those prices, high end chocolate are still among the most affordable luxury goods on the planet. Think about, for about $20 bucks I can go into a store and get some of the best chocolate anywhere. Can't do that for any alcoholic beverage I can think of ...

My personal opinion is that most people who think about melting chocolate into bars are stuck in the single-origin mindset, which translates into one bar = one chocolate. People may not consider domestic producers like Guittard as quality producers, but they are. Now - you may not like the flavor profiles compared to others. That's a different question.

Most people when they say they don't like the flavor profiles look elsewhere. The creative melter will consider blending chocolates to achieve flavor profiles that are unique to their line. Don't like the intensity of a 55%? Add a small amount of 90%. Want to make a dark milk? Go ahead - and blend.

All but one or two of Guittard's couvertures, in bulk, cost under $5/lb. You can do the same with Barry-Callebaut, Kakao Berlin, Belcolade ... all of which are in the $3-4/lb range. Think something's too sweet or too bland? Blend (with something that has a higher cocoa content). It's easier to do this when all the chocolates come from the same manufacturer, but that's a generalization that can easily be overlooked.

Thank you for the reply. the European bars you mentioned would be a very tough sale here in Chicago. Obviously, the couverture is going to be the most costly element in a chocolate bar. Do you have any recommendations for couvertures or favorite couvertures that are high quality yet reasonable in price?

After buying a number of bars and making some myself the pricing thing is somewhat confusing. Probably the best prices I have found is at some of the Whole Foods. I generally convert to pounds in order for comparison. Much of the Lindt, Godiva and other brands generally sell in the low $20 a pound. Usually $4.00 for a 3 to 3.5 oz bar. Generally, the smaller higher quality producers are in the $40-$60 range. Most of these bars are somewhere between 2 and 3 oz. From what I see as far as pricing for beans, roasting, winnowing and grinding is around the $3 a lb range. Transport, customs another $1.50 or $3 depending on size and method. If you ship beans by the container, you may bring this down. You conche, age, temper and mold, maybe another $3 a lb. in costs. If you are doing high end chocolate, you probably have more waste in bean selection, testing and other factors I am unaware of thus far. As a small producer of lets say 25 tons a year you probably need to charge somewhere between $8 and $10 a pound wholesale to make a living working very slim. I assume that would put you your chocolate in the low $20's retail and if you can do something special you can get into the next level of pricing. I have found some of the expensive chocolate bars to be of the medium range as far as quality. I would love to hear from anyone who has traveled this road and adjust what I have discovered.

Daniel -

There are several European imports (Bonnat, Valrhona) that sell for $20-35 for 80gr or 100gr bars. Bars of Fortunato #4 (Peruvian beans converted to chocolate in Switzerland) that are melted here in the US easily cost upwards of $12 for a 56gr bar.

Materials cost is a part of it, and European chocolates are very dependent on exchange rates. Up there are labor costs, the cost of packaging, and fixed overhead. Short of moving, you probably can't do much about fixed overhead, so you have to look at the cost of the chocolate itself, and find ways to reduce labor and packaging costs.

Hi Dylan,

Thanks a lot for bringing up this very important topic. It seems to me that at stores, the highest I see chocolate bars sold for is around $7.99. If I am using very good couverture, I see the bar costing $1.40 in material costs (100grams of very good chocolate and the cost of any inclusions). Am I way off? With packaging and labor also involved, that would bring it up even more. So I wonder how do I bring the costs down? Of course, I understand if you do not wish to share any personal information. Thanks for creating this post

Retail Shops generally look for "Keystone" a wholesale price that they can double for retail.

Food Industry looks for a 40% margin.

Sounds like you're in an exciting place - Good Luck

Hi Clay,

Would mind expanding on this? Say the wholesale cost of a bar, including profit, is $3.33. Should you then price it to the retailer at $5, building in an allowance of $1.67 for a future distributor/broker? Assuming the retailer prices the bar at double their cost, the retail price will be $10.

Is there a "typical" retailer markup for chocolate? For instance, I've read that a general rule of thumb for clothing retailers is to set the retail price of an item at 2.3-2.5 times what they paid for it. Is there something like that in the chocolate world?

Ok, sounds like a wise decision that can only be beneficial. I will account for a distributor in my pricing structure in excess of the 100% on top of whole sale. Thanks for your advice.

Dylan:

I urge you to reconsider only a 100% markup from wholesale and build in some distributor margin - at least one tier - into your pricing structure from the beginning. From the start you can keep it, or offer it as an incentive discount for volume commitments. Later on, when you decide you do need help distributing, you have the margin built in and don't have to either raise prices or reduce your margin.

Your right, I'm planning to sell bars to stores like Whole Foods and R Fields very soon. I'm in the process of leasing a place to set up a little factory. Thanks for explaining Gross Margin. At this point I will assume a 100% markup on my wholesale price to retail stores to be safe. This explains why so many small scale chocolate makers have to sell bars for $6-$9.

Dylan:

I am assuming that you are making chocolate and looking to sell it to stores for retail?

A couple of things to consider when pricing.

You might not always be selling direct to the retailer, so build at least one (and preferably two) layers of distribution into your model, a broker and a distributor. You can decide whether to keep all this margin or "give" some of it away to the retailer. I have seen many chocolate businesses fail because they did not account for middlemen in the distribution chain and there wasn't any slack in their cost structure so scaling the business was extremely difficult.

Rule of thumb would be that the wholesale cost of the bar, including ALL your profits, should be about one-third of the retail price allowing a 100% markup for the retailer. The spread is what you have to play with to offer distributors, but get to keep until you get to that point.

Also, keep in mind that markup and gross margin are not the same thing.

A 25% markup on $1 gets you to $1.25.

A 25% gross margin on $1 gets you to $1.33. Knowing the difference can be the difference when it comes to being profitable or barely breaking even and struggling.

Under no circumstance do i advocate adding fluid milk to your santha. Unless you've got a very good understanding of the microbiological dangers (and controls), and have the appropriate equipment in addition to your santha to help control that, i'd urge you to steer clear from this approach.

arghhh thats what i thought . has anyone tried to do praline filling in a santha?

If you're aiming for bars as your finished product, obviously you'll have to take some liquid out, as fresh milk is largely water and you won't finish with a very solid product.

If I were experimenting with my own supply of fresh milk, I'd be looking at an evaporative/dehydrative process prior to putting it in the santha.

Hi great guys i will ahve to try this out, i always thought liquid would actually sieze the chocolate in a santha.

I agree with Sebastian on this one - it really depends how you process and WHO you get your milk from, be it powdered or fresh. Not all milks are created equal, just as not all beans are.

Why not try some small test batches and see for yourself what YOU think about flavour, whether or not the process is worth the outcome, not to mention whether it's viable in your business plan?

I'd be happy to hear your opinions/results!

is a red car better than a blue car? 8-) appeal and personal preference are multidimensional - and dependent upon many factors that have nothing to do with the final product itself, but involve perception. folks might perceive it to be better because it's made with liquid milk. will it taste different or feel different? that depends entirely on how you process it.

Thanks sebastian, But would you say making milk chocolates from liquid milk would be more appealing or would have a better quality?

Many - it's how milk chocolate was made for a long time, before drying technologies were invented. It's also the reason crumb was invented. Wet milk brings with it a host of challenges, microbiological and physical. It'll be quite challenging for the average joe to successfully incorporate fluid milk into a moldable chocolate. I'd strongly urge you to take the dried milk approach.

Even for those well versed in the practice of making chocolate, with lots of years of experience and fancy machines - most will elect to go the route of dried milk.

H i would just like to ask if anyone has tried to use fresh milk instead of milk powder to make bean to bar chocolates?

Thank you very much for the information. very interesting the information about the water activity; Yes, the raw sugar has more water... and the storage conditions are also important.

Maria:

Free water (also known as water activity) can be a good proxy for longevity. The more water, the shorter the shelf life. There are some (comparatively) inexpensive water activity meters that will let you know precisely what the water activity of any particular batch is. "Raw" sugar often has, in my experience, much more water in it than refined sugar.

I don't remember, off the top of my head where you want the water activity to be. I'll get in touch with Sebastian and ask him to voice his opinion on this topic.

It's also fair to say that storage conditions will affect shelf life - generally too hot is worse than too cold except for the issue of moisture and condensation.

It's also helpful to remember that chocolate never stops crystallizing and much dark chocolate will eventually become brittle in texture (form VI crystals predominate). This can happen well within two years, for many reasons. Melting the chocolate down, keeping at 115F (~45C) for at least an hour with agitation to melt out all the form VI crystals then temper and the chocolate (as long as there is no other defect that affects taste) should be good to go for some applications.

Generally the large producers give 2 years to Darks, 1 year to milk and white. Also note best before date and expiry dates are two different animals.
With chocolate, use the best before, as it does not really expire for quite a long time after the BBD.

Hello,

I would like to ask you what best before dates you give to your chocolates ? I make my chocolate from the beans, 70% cocoa beans + raw sugar. Do you think the chocolate will be ok 2 years after its production ?

Thank you in advance !

Maria

Evelyn,

Thanks very much for making us aware of the book, The E-Myth. I just got it and am half way through. It's very fascinating!

A lot of deep thoughts going on here. I started my wholesale oriented chocolate business last Spring and am nearing completion of the first Holiday season. My schedule this first year has been nothing short of insane. I find myself counting the days down to Easter and the 2 week vacation I am going to take. I am supervising and most of the time participating in production. Almost all "items of increased difficulty" are produced under my direct supervision. I am slowly and patiently teaching my staff but its a long process. In addition all of artistic, packaging and other necessary logistic elements of the business are handled by me plus the sales. I find myself being a "jack of all trades". Do I love the chocolate life? YESSSS. Can I handle many more of the seasons like the one I currently bringing to a close? Def Not.

So thank you everyone for the wisdom that you have shared. A lot of truth has come from everyone in this discussion. Especially Brad, you have opened my eyes to a few things that I knew were there, but was sort of refusing to see.

Andy;

I've been invited skydiving before. My propensity forpushing the envelope and trying stupid things while performing any particular sport has me thinking that after a jump or two, what's left of me would need to be shovelled into a bucket after I hit the ground. At least when I crash my dirt bikes (and I DO crash a few times a year), it's some bad bruises and the occasional broken bone. A skydiving crash would have me looking like I've gone through a wood chipper. No thanks! Haha!

Cheers.

Brad

It seems the real question hasn't been answered, how do you survive and thrive in this business. Of course a business is about making money, but how are you doing it? Marketing, PR, strategic relationships, wash rinse repeat.

Marketing--paid for or your time, traditional to social media-- word of mouth is gold but to expand the circle requires marketing.

PR--are you working with your local magazines editorial cycles and pitching ideas, are you talking to local tv stations about coming to the shop for live feeds or going into the stations to cook on tv? Are you at local festivals on the cooking stage with samples?

Strategic relationships--member of your local chamber? Get biz journals and mine their lists? Corporate orders don't grow on trees.

We're not perfect on all of these points but I work hard to get the word out. Do a little bit, baby steps are still steps. It takes time to get to Brad's exodus from the shop. New businesses have a certain inertia that hold you to the mast but you can break free of it with a plan. Build a plan, work the plan, re-evaluate, adjust, and continue.

Brad, how much of Tim Ferris' skin have you donned? Reading you reminds me of reading him. Totally agree on a lot of points. Come skydive with me on the weekends.

Hi Brad,

Have you read the book "The E-Myth"? From what I read (not finished yet), your ideas seem to follow along the same principles in the book. I think this book is a must-read for anyone starting a business! Anyway, I'm actually looking to open up a chocolate shop by the fall. I'm currently on maternity leave and plan to get everything ready for when it's over. I'm working on a business plan because I need start-up funds, but sometimes I find it overwhelming.Do you have any advice on where to start?

Thanks so much!

Ev

*And good luck to everyone and their business adventures!