Thanks!
Thanks, Tom, for those ideas. I had heard the trick of adding some cold milk previously but not tried it, but I will do so--when needed (as I stated earlier, I have heated some cream and beat the ganache into it).
Why do you think the heated cream (at 41C/105F) is too hot for the tempered chocolate (at 29C/84F), whereas cream at 85C/185F is not?
I am interested to hear that you do not follow the advice of tempering the chocolate when slabbing it, as I have much better luck using the method of pouring hot cream over room temp. chocolate (which, of course, if it is coming from the bag, is already in temper).
Thanks again for the help.
Thanks for the reply, which I found very interesting. Previously I had been doing what you recommend, that is, bringing the chocolate and the cream (plus flavorings) to the same temp., then mixing them. This sometimes worked, but sometimes did not. Some time ago I posted this issue on another forum, and a knowledgeable contributor wrote, "I try to never have my ganaches go under 35 degrees [95 F.] when I work them because under that temperature cacao butter sets....If you are using a chocolate that is at 55 degrees [131 F.] then your liquids can be at 28 [82 F.] ish you will have an end result in theory around 35 degrees. Other way, if your chocolate is at 35 degrees your liquids around 40 ish [104 F.], same result." As you can see, this is a different approach, and since it is what Peter Greweling recommends, I have been following it.
But because I have been having trouble (only with white chocolate) with this method, I will again try what you suggest and see what happens. Thanks again.
I have been experiencing separation of ganache and have sought in vain for answers. When I make ganache by pouring hot cream over chocolate, then stirring, all goes well. But when I temper the chocolate to 84-86 F. (for white) and add cream plus flavorings at 105 F., the emulsion seems to be forming, then breaks with a mass and a separate pool of yellowish liquid. An immersion blender doesn't help, nor does the food processor. The only technique that has worked is to heat several tablespoons of cream and slowly mix the broken ganache into it with a whisk. This has worked every time (so far), although the result does not have the silky texture it should have.
I use several books for making ganaches, but the technique is basically from Peter Greweling (Chocolates & Confections). He states that a slabbed ganache should always be mixed with tempered chocolate. It is his recommended temperatures that I am using. The issue has occurred when I use Valrhona's Opalys white, although sometimes that chocolate (tempered) performs perfectly and mixes without a hitch. The Valrhona bag gives 84 F. as the desired working temperature.
What could it be? Temperature is a consideration, but I am using a Thermoworks infrared thermometer and also a Thermapen to check it. I am tempering with Mycryo, which I use for small batches. The recipe I was using most recently was Greweling's "toucans" (passion fruit ganache), with the change of tempering the chocolate before mixing it with the cream and passion fruit pure (because I was going to slab the ganache).
Any help would be most appreciated.
As Sebastian pointed out, this kind of financial information is highly guarded. You should, however, be able to make a generic analysis. It should be pointed out that Mast Bros operation is completely different from Torres - small vs. large factory.
First, what is the price of beans? Bean to bar makers are paying higher than Fairtrade pricing so estimate around $3500/ton. Add in the cost of shipping - $400 per ton. And the cost of sugar - Organic sugar is $2/lb. These are the raw materials.
Now processing: the beans must be sorted, roasted, cracked, winnowed, ground, counched, tempered, molded and packaged. For small batch operation that might take two people, 20 hours and produce 100 lbs of chocolate. For large factory like Torres - no idea as it is a highly automated process. You will have to research the typical cost of employees in NYC.
Equipment: A small factory might have $150,000 in equipment - a large factory $2-$3M. A portion of the cost must be added in along with all the other overhead - sales, marketing, IT, wages, taxes, websites, packaging, maintenance, travel, utilities, etc. Overhead could run 500 - 1000% of the cost of the beans.
From there you can derive the cost per bar - with plenty of assumptions of course. Most of the costs are variable and controllable by the company.
Or use an industry estimate - one book on specialty food retailing said that the typical retail food cost was 35% of retail so a $8 bar would cost $2.80 to produce.
Hope that helps.
I know what the bars sell for in the stores where with the Mast Brothers bars can go from $7.99-$13.99 but at their factory it is $7.00 per bar or 3 for $20.00.
I haven't been to Jacques Torres for a long time but their bars in retail may go from $5.00 and up depending on which bar.
Cacao Prieto plain bars sell for $10.00 in the retail shops but cheaper whole sale and each store will charge different prices. Hope this helps a bit.
oh, i imagine they'll consider that to be a closely guarded secret...
I may have the exact space that you are describing become available in late spring. You can view a part of it in a video that I recently posted. PM me for contact info or send email to info@emvichocolate.com
Hi Corey,
Do you make plain dark chocolate bars or gluten free items?
I live in the new york city area
I will try to find a way.Thank u Kerry for your advices.I will temper some liquor today and will observ better how it is going.
Do you have a way of checking the temperature of your thermometer or perhaps using another to compare?
The mixture is thick and without stirring it it woult stay (solidified) on the edge of the recipient. my thermometer is electric with a probe (sonde in french).
Sounds on the surface like it should work. When you get down to 27 C - how thick is the mixture? Also how certain are you of the calibration of your thermometer?
Sorry, i ate the end of the discussion:-). So after i put the recipient with the hot liquor in another with cool water until the liquor reaches 27C and put it back to hot until 31C in the tajin.Then I mould the chocolate. I keep stirring the liquor all along this process.
So?
Hi Kerry I agree with you. Here is the way i do the tempering" au bain marie". I use an electris tajin to do it. I put the recipient with the chocolate liquor in it. I control the temperature until 48 C (dark chocolate) after i
Drupa,
It sounds like your problem is in the tempering - it's challenging to temper in a humid environment and you may find that you continue to have problems until you can get an air conditioned space set up to temper. But in the meantime can you tell us how you are tempering your chocolate so we can help you troubleshoot?
I know when I send bars I put them in an envelope or with bubble wrap but also the people who make bars know how to temper and that keeps it from melting.I don't make chocolate except for myself for fun and my tempering is not good,has to be near the cold or it gets too soft,but I would love to be able to try your bar and I know another person who would also be interested.I love being able to discover new bars and to keep on tasting and see things from a consumer point of view.I leave the chocolate making to the people who know how to do it.
hello Adrienne,
I will be happy to send you a bar but i am wondering in what form it will reach to you. I have no idea yet how to do the package to travel towards you without the chocolate melt.Especially because of the problems i have mentionned in my last reply. Can someone help?
Hello Angenieux,
If you are making bars this chocolate loving girl would love to be able to try a bar and buy.
I live in New York City and always looking to try new bars. I tried some bars from Australia and the two out of the
four I really liked but the bars were interesting to try and glad I did.I would also share your bars with other chocolate loving friends here.
Nice to meet you olivier, I wanted to share chocolate making with members who deal with the heat and the humidity of their country, I supposed that the tempering is done in a air conditionning room, i don't have that privilege for the moment, so i tried to do the temper in the evening but my chocolate..."trs bons..." is melting too fast when i took it out of the fridge (15 min after). Obviously i miss something in the tempering process (i make only dark chocolate). I have started to plant cacao trees, do you plant also?( my name is drupa).
A bientt.
Hi Angenieux,
I am in Chile so on the other side of South America but I just wanted to let you know there are members from South America. Je parle franais y tambien castellano.
I am happy to find a site with people sharing my passion of making chocolate. I feel somehow lonely coming from south america and not have already seen any discussion of any south american members...Maybe I didn't search enough.
I started to be interrested by cacao when i had the opportunity to discover that french guiana had ancient abandonned cacao plantations since the colonisation period.For almost one year and a half I tryed with a friend to make at first the traditionnal cacao"baton"(don't know how to translate). Basically it is the nibs less or more fermented,dryed , less or more torrefied and grinded manually making a pastry rolled into a stick and served for traditionnal cacao drink after grating it into boilling milk with addition of sugar and spice.At that moment we just had the equipment for doing that.
Soon after we started to aim the chocolate making. Looking after internet , trying different fermentations, discovering the type of cacao we used (though it was forasteros but...discovering according to litterature and experiences that there were a lot of hybridation since the colonial period...)
We visited another chocolate maker in the country,and in a bordering country (suriname) both artisans .
We did experimentations until we discovered the melanger of cacaotown.I went to england to buy it(double price to shipping from the usa and more to pay at the customs here)...And tempering with marble and "bain marie".
Tests of tasting with the local and europeans inhabitants...Waiting for us to sell...from tree to bar. There is a lack of a lot of things over here and it is a patient and hard labour to fulfill our aims because we are very exigeant with the product and with ourselves.
What else to say ?My company is about to be created (small skale from tree to bar) and in spite of my mediocre english expression, i hope you will understand my introduction .
Hi Jessica,
While we do not produce any chocolate, we are producing Raw Organic Cocoa Nibs. Feel free to contact me if you would like more info ddomingo@ecomtrading.com
Dan
Hi Jess - testing was standard plate count, salmonella, and e.coli. products were commercially available and purchased retail or mail order - i won't list the brands here - nor their specific results - as that's a pretty good way to destroy someone's business, but the individuals were notified. Note that this was not done at their request. The results are not encouraging (one case had 10^11 levels!), and have sparked discussions with the FDA to address the issue if it continues to emerge in a non-controlled fashion.
Suffice it to say that i know of no validated safe way to produce a raw chocolate, as defined by <118F temps, today, and i've been exposed to a bit more process/tech as it relates to chocolate than your average bear. The issue is 100% a microbiological one.
John,
Thank you for your insight. I respect Vanessa and Gnosis Chocolate. I will reach out to her.
Jessica
Thank you for your reply Sebastian. Im curious about the testing you have done. What brands and sources have you tested? DId you primarily test only the beans, or did you test the cacao powder and butter as well? And, because I am only minimally informed on this issue: What is your process for testing and what is a "normal" micro load on a roasted cacao bean versus the numbers you got on the unroasted products?
Please forgive the number of questions I am curious by nature and am on a mission to know.
Hi Jessica,
I am on the consumer end and keep on trying dark chocolate bars.
I have tasted many raw cocoa bars and there were only a few that I did like
For me I like my chocolate roasted or cooked,I am not against the bar being raw it just has to taste good
I think with some of the makers adding palm sugar or coconut sugar makes the bars taste better and hope I used the sugar terms correctly.
Hi Jessica,
You might want to reach out to Vanessa at http://www.gnosischocolate.com/ . Gnosis makes some good raw chocolate, and Vanessa is quite helpful. You can say the John from Travel Chocolate suggested that you contact her. Good luck! John R.
How do they address it? They don't. I've tested a number of them, and to be frank they were off the charts high in micro load. It's only a matter of time before the FDA steps in and regulates this. Discussions have already been had. It's on the docket. If the industry doesn't self regulate, government will.
UV light will not be effective as there are far too many 'nooks and crannies' where the UV doesn't shine.
I'm working out a way that *might* allow a raw, micro safe product to be made, but it's not tested yet. I think it's possible, but i need to noodle through some more things on it first.
I just found this post on chocolatealchemy about the Champion Juicer:
I have a dream of creating a raw bean-to-bar business. I am very curious in learning more about the process. I know there are a lot of postings on this forum surrounding the issue of "raw." I have gleaned a lot of pertinent information from previous forums.
At this point, I would love to hear from someone who is actually doing it. It seems that there is a lot of concern about the safety of unroasted beans, which is a very valid concern. How do raw chocolate makers deal with this issue. Clay mentioned that UV lights could be utilized to sterilize the beans. Has anyone used this system?
Another question I have is about the winnowing and grinding. It seems that roasting loosens the hull. In a post on this site from Big Tree Farms, he mentions that he winnows the bean and then removes the rest of the hull by hand. I have also heard that you can use a champion juicer, which will remove the hull. Has anyone employed these methods? Or somehow increased the efficiency?
To be honest, I am far less interested in the "Raw" temperature standards and enzymatic activity, than I am in using the unroasted cacao. Call me crazy, but I really like the gentle flavors I get. I do not intend to market my product as "raw", simply as using unroasted beans. I am disinterested in arguing the validity of the "RAW" label, as there is plenty of forum information on that topic already. I am merely exploring whether this is a functional route. Any help is hugely appreciated.
Thank you!!!
Jessica
Kristofer,
very good and helpful information. Did you have good success with freeze dried products, like strawberries? we tried to make them but they formed lumps or ended up broken into smaller pieces as freeze dried products are very fragile. It is very hard to separate them by hand because of that. What is your experience with freeze dried products?
Union Machinery makes a small coating pan for under $2000. I bought one about two months ago. It has no heating/cooling.
I use my air conditioner, a fan and a hair dryer as my cooling/heating sources.
Here's a picture of some milk-chocolate panned macadamias done in this pan.
Hi Sally,
The Kitchen-Aid attachment, provided you already own a Kitchen-Aid, is a great way to get started. It is fun and inexpensive, and allows you to try out the process before making a bigger investment. Stand-alone panning machines can cost, as far as I know, upwards of $3000-$4000 and don't do much larger a volume than the attachment, which costs between $500-$750. And personally, I would rather get multiple attachments if I could spend the 3/4k, because it would allow you to process different flavors at the same time.
The detractor of both of these machines is that you don't have a built in heating/cooling unit, the latter of which is very necessary to do a proper product and volume. Chocofreeze is an expensive substitute, but I did use that at times to speed up the process. The next step up is a machine like the Selmi Comfit, which pans around 40kg at a time and costs about $16000, and has a built in air compressor.
The Kitchen-Aid is painfully slow once you realize that you really need to start producing more, and if you factor in time wasted + lesser product quality with the smaller machines, something like the Selmi Comfit begins to seem more and more reasonable financially.
Breakdown:
Kitchen-Aid Attachment-
$500-750 USD
1 kg capacity (finished product)
Stand-Alone (various brands)-
$3000-$4000 USD
2-4 kg capacity (finished product)
Selmi Comfit-
$16000 USD
40-45 kg capacity (finished product)
This is by far one of the best contributions anyone has made here on TCL. Thank you for this. For a beginner panner this is invaluable information.
